Miller's play style & pack line defense - Topic moved from Nico thread

[Liquidated]

Post here instead of the Nico thread about Miller's play style. All of the posts in that thread were moved here.

I started a post on the other thread apparently before you moved these...can you move that one too?

[Liquidated]

 

Kobi's 42.8% shooting is impressive in 60 minutes of play?  That's good for 335th in the league.

For a 19 year old rookie who did not start on his college team? Yes. 

Of the 4 guys I mentioned, Trier/RHJ/Gordon are in the league with contracts.  Everybody knew that NJ was athletic, similar to Salim, wasn't quite an NBA PG.  Their athleticism was absolutely utilized in college.

Because of the up tempo game we played? Or the M2M defense or the creative offensive sets we used? 

PJC was 5'7".  He couldn't dunk, but he was recruited as a nice backup PG in college

.

Agreed - but he was a great athlete.

Comanche's footwork was miserable

. 

Agreed - but he was a very good athlete.

Fran Dunphy

Poster boy for Philadelphia Basketball (the most everrated basketball town of all time). He's made the second round of the tournament 3 times in 17 tries. He is literally 3-20 in the tournament.

Jim Boeheim

As I noted.

Mike Hopkins

I think he is totally legit but he is brand new and the proof will be over time.

The point was to name more than handful and you can't because they don't exist.

Even Scott Drew stayed away from man-to-man until this last season.

So you are saying that coaches can change their ideas and philosophies?...interesting....

There are numerous coaches that solely run man-to-man, specifically pack-line.

MANY run M2M - Not that many use pack line.
Dick Bennett is retired. His successor, Bo Ryan did not run the pack line.
Matta is retired. Holtman runs the Pack line but Ohio State slipped to 8th in the big ten this past season (sound familiar?) and based on recruiting is not likely to climb much in the Big Ten. This is analogous to Mackovic running the Double Eagle Flex - 15 years after everyone figured it out.
Sendeck is on the hot seat after three horrible seasons at Santa Clara. 
Archie Miller has had 2 dismal seasons at Indiana. This headline pretty much says it all:
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2017/11/18/archie-miller-trademark-defense-still-work-progress-iu-basketball/876235001/

UVA just won 4 of the last 6 ACC Titles and a National Championship without sniffing the lazy-zone.

1. A down era for the ACC. 2. Packline is high percentage winning defense, until you run into legitimate coaching and player talent, which the pack line has no answer for.  3. Virginia is the only pack line team every to even reach the final four and 4. they probably had the easiest path to the championship in 20 years. 5. They used full court press in the middle of games in the tournament and they also played a hybrid pack line that gave up some rebounding in order to run on Purdue. Bennet is a far more flexible coach than Miller.

I remember Lute's 1-3-1 well.  It allowed UW to come back from a 2nd half double-digit deficit on Senior Night in 2006.  We had that game wrapped up until Mustafa Shakur kept rotating into coverage with the Huskies' big men.  Stellar.

We did not run the 1-3-1 with Mustafa on the baseline, ever. He did not have the quickness or hands for it. We ran Joe McLean, Jason Terry on the baseline in the 1-3-1 set and those teams were the only ones I recall ever using it. Lute abandoned the 1-3-1 long before Mustafa came and we never ran a 1-3-1 for any significant length of time in any game.

If he finished with a 26.7% 3-PT mark...it's on him. 

wow.

Miller shouldn't be the scapegoat for Lauri's 2-month struggle.

Is Miller responsible for anything this team, his coaches or the program ever does wrong?

He'll be involved in the game-plans.

I cannot imagine a worse idea. Career .344 in the big sky

 

[Liquidated]

Liquid is suffering from selective memory syndrome.

one of us is, that is for certain.

Golden State Warriors didn't prove anything concrete with the 3 point shot.

I'm just gonna let that steep for a while. There is not a serious basketball fan, player or coach who would agree with that statement. Not 1. Golden State and their approach to analytics, literally changed everything. Even the haters of analytics recognize that it is a sea change for the game. MBA programs are using it as a case studies in statistics, colleges are creating special admin positions within the athletic departments to track everything, this is the biggest change in basketball since the shot clock and 3 point line. There are football teams modeling the approach now...it is a big deal and the warriors proved exactly why it is. In an era when everyone said there would be no more dynasties, Golden State is a dynasty, 5 western conference championships IN A ROW. The ONLY franchise ever to win 5 in row (or more) were the Boston Celtics IN THE 1950's and 60's (they won 8, 1957-1966)...The Lakers have never won 5 in row. Neither did the Bulls, Pistons or Spurs. Oh, and they won 3 titles in 4 years.

Fundamental basketball is never going away.

Of course not. Pass, dribble, shoot, defend, rebound... no one is suggesting otherwise.

More possessions, playing faster always works in the casual long regular season, but in the playoffs you ALWAYS see games in the 80s-90s. Not 130-127 final scores in regulation.

In 6 games the Raptors and Warriors (combined) averaged 108.66...NBA season average in 2019 was 105.2 for all teams. Only 1 score in 12 was below 100 in the finals. And the college season and game is totally different.

It's not quantifiable other than a Loss that a Remy Martin makes 6 circus shots and goes off for 35pts, or Frank Kaminsky stretches Zews out and hits 3s when Zews isn't a perimeter defender and Kaminsky is 6'10 or so and able to hit 3s. OR Sam Dekker hitting like 8 3's in a game of his life. These are just things that happen. Sean Miller adjusts and puts 6'7, 6'8" players on a 6'10 shooter who is having a game of his life. It's just physics. You don't double team every play and give up free 2's. Do we blame our team for Isaiah Thomas hitting a game winner in the pac12 tourney finals? Do we blame our team for Aaron Craft hitting a 3 to beat us in the sweet 16?

This is all anecdotal. In some ways it is what makes the game so great. But Miller does not adjust. When Martin is hot, he does not press him full court to throw his timing off or double team him or switch to a zone to catch him off guard...nope...we just substitute and tell player Y to do exactly what player X was supposed to. Maybe the worst possible way to handle a hot player on an opposing team.

Oh, what about Lute's 1-3-1 that allowed Deron Williams to bring Illinois back down 15 in the final 3 minutes of an Elite Eight game?

I'm going to assume you did not see that game. We did not use the 1-3-1 at all when Mustafa was here. Never. And it was not our defense that failed in that game, it was Mustafa...who stepped out of bounds (un contested in the back court) for no reason at all TWICE to turn the ball over. He literally had no idea where the lines were. He also made some horrendous passes and what was likely Lute's greatest failure ever as a coach, he refused to put Chris Rodgers in who would have atleast changed the tempo and feel of the game and literally anyone on that team would have been better than Mustafa was that night.

I cite the 1-3-1 because it is, at best a gimmick defense. We never played it for more than 3-4 minutes at time. But when Terry ran the baseline it was somewhat effective. And what it did was throw a wrinkle at an opposing coach who, inevitably had to use a TO to coach his players on how to handle it. Then we'd go right back to M2M or we'd suddenly throw a full court press at them. This is coaching 101 - a class Miller missed somewhere along the way.

Was that Sean Miller's fault?

This is an absurd question - have I ever blamed Miller for a loss under Olson? Is this even germane to the discussion?

Does double teaming Allen Iverson count as Lute Olson inventing the wheel? Im sure teams triple teamed AI and he still beat them. Sometimes a 1 man army just cannot get it done.

You missed this game too. YES...Lute DID invent the wheel for that game. The New York Times wrote a long article about it, ten years after it happened. I have never seen or heard of a defense like that before or since and it worked beautifully in a game we were not favored in. Coming into that game Iverson was as close to Zion Williamson (remember there was no social media back then) as you can get. No player, except for maybe Jason Kidd and Ralph Sampson were ever hyped as much as Iverson. And BTW, I think Iverson is still one of the greatest college payers I ever saw.   

OR DO YOU EVER GIVE ANY OPPONENT CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE???

I get bashed solidly for giving Altman, Hopkins and Hurley and their players and programs their due. So, yes.

---> One other thought: Liquid seems to also forget that sometimes players like to showcase their talents. If someone like Lauri moved positions, its not always because Sean Miller told him to.

You really have no idea how college basketball works, do you?

Sometimes a College Coach's promise to a recruit is that they will showcase what they can do so that they get exposure for their ultimate goal of being a lottery pick.

Not at a good program. Potential lottery picks are always going to get minutes. Unless they are named Simmons and Miller hates them.

WHICH Miller has had MANY Lottery picks under developed or not.

5 to be exact - Only one of whom left Arizona a better player than when he got here - Derrick Williams. Gordon, Stanimal and Ayton all showed very small improvement, if any. None of them were able to get Miller to final four. Lauri actually got worse as the season progressed - wonder why?

It was definitely better for Lauri to show that he can play inside and out whether his percentages are up or down.

.689 3 point shooting percentage. Best move is NO MOVE. This was Miller re-inventing the wheel and making it square. Had he been able to finish at .575 (let's say) in 3 point shooting, he would have been the #1 pick over all.

This lends to the Nico-Effect going on here where a ton of people think that a guy can average 14ppg and be a top lottery pick just on "what you see athletically/mechanically as a scout" as opposed to "what he does statistically"

The pool is now large enough that for players to be top needs everything...raw athleticism, pure talent and huge numbers...huge numbers will not come at Arizona. Ayton was literally the only real talent we had last year so he was an exception but his college numbers were not stratospheric.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Does anyone ever notice that as February rolls around that most shooters tend to start taking their 3s a few feet behind the line? They are doing it on purpose to show that they can play at the NBA standard. It always happens.

This would be starvation diet. Great, elite level, pure three point shooters (like Salim, for example) don't pay much attention to the line and yes they tend to get showcased in the tournament because they have carried their teams and we are seeing more and more 3 point shooters (analytics). The kid form Purdue was ridiculous this past year.  But everyone else is as close to the line as they can get - no matter what time of year it is. 

Just because Villanova players took their shots right on the 3pt line doesn't mean they did themselves any favors individually at the next level (Mikail Bridges basically being the best currently of that recent batch). They won their titles on 3pt shooting with basically juniors and seniors. They emulated the Warriors and when the guys like Bridges/DiVenchenzo and all moved on they couldn't get it done this year. The 3pt Fad works 99% of the time when you have great 3pt shooters. College has too much turnover to have a program win 8 titles in 10 years on a system based around taking as many 3s as possible.

OMG

The 3pt Fad works 99% of the time when you have great 3pt shooters.

Why not just say that "the team that scores more wins more than 99% of the time"? 3 point shooting is not a fad. 3 point shooting is rising both in percentage and attempts. NO ONE has ever won 8 titles in ten years or come anywhere close except, of course for Wooden. NO one ever will baring some unforeseen absurdly improbable string one events. Different era. No shot clock. No 3 point line. Only a handful of truly competitive programs - heck the NBA was in its infancy then.

Sure we would love a perfect universe where Arizona teams always have 3-4 year guys, but that doesn't mean they will all be great 3pt shooters and it doesn't mean that they won't go cold in 1 game in March when it matters.

You could say the same for string inside guys or great rebounders....yes, this is obvious. My point - who was the last great 3 point shooter in the program (other than Lauri)? It has not ben point of emphasis for Miller. And as 3 point shooting becomes more and more important in the game, his defense is specifically designed to sacrifice 3 pt shooting defense in favor of other things. He is out of step with the times.

[KansasCityCats]

Yes, Fran struggled in Philly...because he only played zone.  Boeheim is the ONLY guy to win a national championship with a "mostly" zone D. 

Yes, Scott Drew changed his philosophy...and he ended up with the MOST losses since Miller arrived in Tucson.

Don't forget that Holtmann inherited an Ohio State team that was tied for 10th in the Big-10.  His rebuild project is doing well...as are the current Xavier/Louisville programs.

ACC has 4 teams that finished in the Top-10 of the AP Poll.  Pretty sure the conference is not down.  Especially with Dook and UNC championships over the past few seasons.

[KansasCityCats]

Forgot to mention that mismatches under the basket (specifically with guys like Shakur, Gardner and Rodgers) were the reason we lost games like the finale against UW.

We could outscore anybody during those days. Defensive scheme was our primary issue.

[Liquidated]

Forgot to mention that mismatches under the basket (specifically with guys like Shakur, Gardner and Rodgers) were the reason we lost games like the finale against UW.

We could outscore anybody during those days. Defensive scheme was our primary issue.

Agree that our struggles late in Lute's tenure were more defensively oriented... and with the switching we did there were mis-matches created and I remember well that a small guard would end up under the basket...  one reason too was that we started lacking depth of big men. After the Ebi debacle, it seemed we were always playing catch up or taking on projects for the front line. We had Frye but no depth... or IRad and no depth...and then guys like Tangara or Shumpert. Some projects worked out...Jordan Hill for example and the experiment of moving Hassan Adams to the four worked out ok, too but we had some real challenges with big men there for several years.

[KansasCityCats]

The thing I loved best about Lute's teams is that he only had ONE Center on the roster at a time...yet they always stuck around with the program...and NEVER got hurt.  Don't know if that's "luck" or "good planning", but it allowed the team to play positionless basketball from PG-PF.

Now that Miller is recruiting some larger athletic kids that can play multiple positions, I'm hoping that our defense will create some turnovers and earn transition baskets.

[Johnny-bravo]

I really LOVE this "ignore" feature!  I have had to read one word from Liquidated or Bear in a month.  Thanks whoever pointed it out.

Now if I could convince others to ignore liquidated, I wouldn't have to experience him second hand!

[arxpert]

Thanks for the tip ^^^^^^^

There's only 1 Chef Curry. Probably once in a lifetime.