Miller's play style & pack line defense - Topic moved from Nico thread

[wc]

Deja vu Kansas, as I remember hoping Romar would bring a breath of fresh air to our offense too!  Ah well, hope you are right with Murph.

I had high hopes for an actual zone offense to show up when Romar was here, but yeah, no change. but I share the sentiment, "Ah well, hope you are right with Murph"

[arxpert]

Since when has Kobi Simmons exploded as an elite rising star in the NBA?

[Liquidated]

Since when has Kobi Simmons exploded as an elite rising star in the NBA?

As a 19 year old rookie, Kobi Simons played in 32 games, averaged 20 minutes per game shot .428 from the field, averaged 2 assist and 6 points per game. Thats pretty damn impressive for a guy that Miller Benched.

[Liquidated]

Deja vu Kansas, as I remember hoping Romar would bring a breath of fresh air to our offense too!  Ah well, hope you are right with Murph.

I had high hopes for an actual zone offense to show up when Romar was here, but yeah, no change. but I share the sentiment, "Ah well, hope you are right with Murph"

Really? Romar is well known and respected as great guy, but I think he might be an idiot-savant (look it up if you don't know exactly what it means - I am NOT calling him an idiot). He clearly recruits well and loves his guys but his washington teams were pure chaos on the court, immensely talented but totally disorganized and inconsistent.

[Liquidated]

Barring an injury, Josh Green is getting drafted...high.

ok

How did Miller not utilize the athleticism of his recruits?

Playing the pack line defense. It is designed for less athletic and shorter players. Using elite athletes wastes their abilities to block shots, steal the ball (a big no-no for Miller), and especially not to run and open the game up. We have literally had the personnel to run people off the floor for almost a decade and not even tried to do so.

Trier constantly got to the basket, NJ was known for flying through the lane, RHJ played inside AND out and Gordon was one of the best dunkers in Arizona history.

How many of them even came to close to living up to their potential?

It isn't fair to compare guys like PJC, Comanche, Simon, York & Allen...players who weren't known for their athleticism.

I wasn't comparing them, just noting they were part of the over all team that was athletic. PJC was an outstanding athlete, fast quick and always under control. He is the same athlete that Jason Terry is. He just dod not have the BB IQ or BB abilities. Comanche is one of the most athletic bigs we have seen - in that Loren Woods, Brandon Ashley mode...again, not as talented but every bit the athlete. York, like PJC did not want for athleticism, he was just too short and not really all that good....the pint is all of them were as good or better athetles than almost anyone we played and Miller, rather than use that, had them playing brain dead offense and the pack line defense.

Xavier/Wichita/Buffalo should be playing the zone...not us.  Zone is for teams that do NOT have athleticism...and can't cover their men.  It's for lazy schools that don't understand how to go through screens & switch on pick-and-rolls. 

No one has ever suggested that we should run a zone defense exclusively or even primarily. But we should have 5 (minimum) that we can switch into to change tempo, run isolations or double teams on opposing players, surprise coaches, force them to call time outs or make substitutions...there are not 5 great coaches you can name that have not been able to switch into different defenses. Boeheim, Knight and.....go ahead...name another. They are few and far between. 

Arizona's defensive scheme has consistently kept opponent's shooting percentages at a minimum since Miller's arrival.

Not appreciably better than Lutes teams who played mostly M2M but also 1-3-1's, 2-3's, full court presses, triangle and 2, and several others, and the Iverson D which was a m2m but double teamed the ball at all times while not covering Iverson and let him do whatever he wanted. One of the most brilliant coaching moves ever. 

Lauri shot 41.7% from 3PT range in OOC.

It was .435 (27 of 62)

He had a hot January & a cold February/March.

yep.

That wasn't a result of his position change.  If it were, he'd be shooting 50%+ during the first half of the season.  https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/lauri-markkanen-1/gamelog/2017/

It absolutely was. He was shooting .689 from 3 pint range in January when Miller announced the change. I had to look it up again - but had calculated this at the time. Miller announced that Lauri would 'move inside' after the UCLA game on the 21st of January. IN JANUARY, he had shot .689 up until that point. Gary Randazzo or Brad Allis did an article on that at the time on the old site. It was a 6 game stretch but it was clearly a pattern and it was the 'move inside' that coincided with his shooting %'s that fell off a cliff. That is all on Miller and is a bafflingly stupid mistake.

Lauri would only make 21 3-pointers in all of the remainder of the season - which was 17 games, fewer than 2 per game for a guy who began the year averaging .689. If my player is hitting .689, I'm telling him not to wash his uniform and not to do anything different from what he is doing and I sure as hell am not making public statements about moving him to different position.  Miller is stupid, stupid, stupid.

OOC = .435
January = .600 
February & March = .267 

No player in the world suddenly goes that cold. Not even Steve Kerr in the final four or Brand Randolph last year.

In reality, I'm hoping that Jack Murphy can bring a new offensive mentality to this team.

Not going to happen. Murphy was effectively hired by a group of boosters, Miller is a very petty guy and has to be resentful and is probably keen on marginalizing him. Romar had zero impact and Miller allegedly liked him. The coaches Miller hired are all pack line guys. Murphy will be far down the bench (if not physically, metaphorically) and have no influence. It's not like Murphy is any sort of basketball master mind look at his dismal NAU record. He was brought in to police Miller.

Miller understands the fundamentals,

I seriously doubt that... he is totally ignoring analytics, playing the worst possible defense for the athleticism and skill level of his players, and for the current game

but I agree that he needs to pick up the tempo. 

Exactly, why wouldn't you? With These kinds of players? Of course....but it means abandoning the pack line to do so.

Perhaps Jack can channel his inner Lute...

A guy who had 1 wining season in 7 as a head coach> Not sure how much 'inner Lute' is there, pretty sure it's none.

[Liquidated]

 

Exactly. That is what the pack line is designed to do, play the percentages and try to make your team take tough shots.

It is designed to stop penetration and mid range shots and force outside shooting and specifically gives up perimeter pressure, steals & outside shooting (erroneously thought to be lower percentage shots)....it was developed before the 3 point shot and for teams that are shorter and slower and less athletic than their opponents. Girls HS teams are the best use of the pack line. We have no problems with height, athleticism or talent and we have a three point line - which just got moved back making the pack line even less effective at defending the perimeter shooters.

The geeks who own the Golden State Warriors showed that, in fact, it is the mid range shots that are the lowest percentage shots and most every college coach in America has adjusted their thinking...but not Miller.

Listen to Jon Rothstein - he interviews almost every single power 5 coach in the off season especially the new ones taking over failed programs. To a person every single one of them has talked about analytics this year.

Our teams the last couple of years have had no chance at stopping things on the perimeter and our sefense would collapse as guys are forced to rotate or bigs move up.

No different than any other year Miller was here, except for individual talent levels. The schematics were identical, though.

 

[KansasCityCats]

Pack Line was designed for athletes that can stay in front of the ball.  HS Girls Bball uses it because they understand the fundamentals of the game and don't want to "save energy" but being lazy and standing in a general area for 40 minutes.

Kobi's 42.8% shooting is impressive in 60 minutes of play?  That's good for 335th in the league.  Hell, 7 of Arizona's players had a better % than Kobi in the same season. The kid didn't play in the league this year for a reason.

Of the 4 guys I mentioned, Trier/RHJ/Gordon are in the league with contracts.  Everybody knew that NJ was athletic, similar to Salim, wasn't quite an NBA PG.  Their athleticism was absolutely utilized in college.

PJC was 5'7".  He couldn't dunk, but he was recruited as a nice backup PG in college.  Comanche's footwork was miserable.  He only started 8 G-League games last year because (similar to Kobi) he thinks he's entitled to an NBA spot...and doesn't want to work for one. 

Fran Dunphy, Jim Boeheim & Mike Hopkins are 3 guys that are zone-only coaches.  Even Scott Drew stayed away from man-to-man until this last season.  There are numerous coaches that solely run man-to-man, specifically pack-line.  UVA just won 4 of the last 6 ACC Titles and a National Championship without sniffing the lazy-zone.

I remember Lute's 1-3-1 well.  It allowed UW to come back from a 2nd half double-digit deficit on Senior Night in 2006.  We had that game wrapped up until Mustafa Shakur kept rotating into coverage with the Huskies' big men.  Stellar.

If Lauri moved "inside", then he was likely covered by big men that couldn't rotate to the perimeter.  If he finished with a 26.7% 3-PT mark...it's on him.  The announcers constantly brought up that it was a confidence issue; he's a freshman...it happens.  He took just as many 3-PT attempts per game, so it didn't affect his ability to get to the perimeter.  Miller shouldn't be the scapegoat for Lauri's 2-month struggle.

We'll see about Murphy.  He was brought in as Associate HC & he's the only assistant with a decent amount of D-1 coaching experience.  He'll be involved in the game-plans.  NAU was miserable.  Last season, their defense was 314th...but their offense was 157th.  In fact, their team shooting percentage was the same as Kobi Simmons' in 2017-18!

[PBCatfan]

Exactly. That is what the pack line is designed to do, play the percentages and try to make your team take tough shots.

It is designed to stop penetration and mid range shots and force outside shooting and specifically gives up perimeter pressure, steals & outside shooting (erroneously thought to be lower percentage shots)....it was developed before the 3 point shot and for teams that are shorter and slower and less athletic than their opponents. Girls HS teams are the best use of the pack line. We have no problems with height, athleticism or talent and we have a three point line - which just got moved back making the pack line even less effective at defending the perimeter shooters.

The geeks who own the Golden State Warriors showed that, in fact, it is the mid range shots that are the lowest percentage shots and most every college coach in America has adjusted their thinking...but not Miller.

Listen to Jon Rothstein - he interviews almost every single power 5 coach in the off season especially the new ones taking over failed programs. To a person every single one of them has talked about analytics this year.

Our teams the last couple of years have had no chance at stopping things on the perimeter and our sefense would collapse as guys are forced to rotate or bigs move up.

No different than any other year Miller was here, except for individual talent levels. The schematics were identical, though.

Miller loves analytics. That has nothing to do with running a pack line defense lololol. You crack me up with the shit you pull out of your ass.

You also answered your own question... The pack line is meant to keep the offensive player in front of you. Shutting down penetration and mid-range shots, just as you say. You are correct there, but where you have a lack of understanding is how having bigger, quicker, longer, more athletic players, aka talented in your book, those guys will be able to close out on 3 point shooters better than ANYONE else.

SOOOOO if you have shut down penetration, shut down the mid-range game, AND you are able to close out on 3 point shooters and force tough shots.... WHERE IS THE WEAKNESS OF THE DEFENSE?

Do you think it's a coincidence that the year we had 3 dudes capable of keeping their man in front of them on the perimeter without help (TJ, Nick J, and Rondae) we also had the #1 defense in the country? The best. Nobody better on defense than Sean Miller and his 1980's HS girls defensive scheme.

Think about it, Liquid. Dammit.

[ChrisZona]

If Lauri moved "inside", then he was likely covered by big men that couldn't rotate to the perimeter.  If he finished with a 26.7% 3-PT mark...it's on him.  The announcers constantly brought up that it was a confidence issue; he's a freshman...it happens.  He took just as many 3-PT attempts per game, so it didn't affect his ability to get to the perimeter.  Miller shouldn't be the scapegoat for Lauri's 2-month struggle.

Just looked into it for you first games he shoot 96 threes in 20 games around 5 attempts a game. After UCLA game after Allonzo came back he attempted 67 threes in 17 games around 4 attempts a game. So not coincidentally once Allonzo came back his 3PA and overall FGA took slight dips in his return. Not whatever moved "inside" means, playing center? Wouldn't make sense either sense Ristic played there all year, regardless it's a massive stretch to think shooting 4 instead of 5 threes a game is the reason behind a cold-streak.

[arxpert]

Liquid is suffering from selective memory syndrome.

Golden State Warriors didn't prove anything concrete with the 3 point shot. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson happen to be the greatest 3pt shooting tandem in NBA history and mostly just Steph Curry being the greatest 3pt shooter ever. It's now actually been proven to be an OUTLIER as they did not win 2 championships at this point because jacking up 3s and being thin on defense in Man To Man eventually regresses to the mean, they even resorted to the Box and 1 this year. Curry has never made a game winning playoff shot. He missed this year when it counted. Its a phase of the game. All sports have Fad's. MLB is in the "Shift" Era, but players adapt and beat it eventually.

Up and coming kids are going to try to emulate Curry, but there is a reason there are HR Kings in Baseball when EVERYONE took roids. Only certain guys could hit 50-73 HR ON ROIDS. Only certain ALL-TIME players will ever come close to what Curry is doing now. Fundamental basketball is never going away. More possessions, playing faster always works in the casual long regular season, but in the playoffs you ALWAYS see games in the 80s-90s. Not 130-127 final scores in regulation.

- Not taking anything away from the Warriors. They are amazing and 1 of 2 of my favorite Non-Homer teams. AND I hope they prove everyone wrong this year and get right back when Klay returns. But Kawhi Leonard has won 2 titles, 2 finals MVPs with an all around game. He makes more mid range shots than anyone. (Derozen is pretty equal but can't hit 3s). Elite superstars make plays. That's why they are the best at what they do.


It's not quantifiable other than a Loss that a Remy Martin makes 6 circus shots and goes off for 35pts, or Frank Kaminsky stretches Zews out and hits 3s when Zews isn't a perimeter defender and Kaminsky is 6'10 or so and able to hit 3s. OR Sam Dekker hitting like 8 3's in a game of his life. These are just things that happen. Sean Miller adjusts and puts 6'7, 6'8" players on a 6'10 shooter who is having a game of his life. It's just physics. You don't double team every play and give up free 2's. Do we blame our team for Isaiah Thomas hitting a game winner in the pac12 tourney finals? Do we blame our team for Aaron Craft hitting a 3 to beat us in the sweet 16?

Oh, what about Lute's 1-3-1 that allowed Deron Williams to bring Illinois back down 15 in the final 3 minutes of an Elite Eight game? Was that Sean Miller's fault? I don't remember. Does double teaming Allen Iverson count as Lute Olson inventing the wheel? Im sure teams triple teamed AI and he still beat them. Sometimes a 1 man army just cannot get it done.

OR DO YOU EVER GIVE ANY OPPONENT CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE???

---> One other thought: Liquid seems to also forget that sometimes players like to showcase their talents. If someone like Lauri moved positions, its not always because Sean Miller told him to. Sometimes a College Coach's promise to a recruit is that they will showcase what they can do so that they get exposure for their ultimate goal of being a lottery pick. WHICH Miller has had MANY Lottery picks under developed or not. The development in 1 or 2 years is always going to be limited in a Push and Pull between winning and working on the craft. It was definitely better for Lauri to show that he can play inside and out whether his percentages are up or down. This lends to the Nico-Effect going on here where a ton of people think that a guy can average 14ppg and be a top lottery pick just on "what you see athletically/mechanically as a scout" as opposed to "what he does statistically"

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Does anyone ever notice that as February rolls around that most shooters tend to start taking their 3s a few feet behind the line? They are doing it on purpose to show that they can play at the NBA standard. It always happens.

Just because Villanova players took their shots right on the 3pt line doesn't mean they did themselves any favors individually at the next level (Mikail Bridges basically being the best currently of that recent batch). They won their titles on 3pt shooting with basically juniors and seniors. They emulated the Warriors and when the guys like Bridges/DiVenchenzo and all moved on they couldn't get it done this year. The 3pt Fad works 99% of the time when you have great 3pt shooters. College has too much turnover to have a program win 8 titles in 10 years on a system based around taking as many 3s as possible.

Sure we would love a perfect universe where Arizona teams always have 3-4 year guys, but that doesn't mean they will all be great 3pt shooters and it doesn't mean that they won't go cold in 1 game in March when it matters. You recruit the best players you can. You do the best you can with them while they have their own motives and aspirations beyond the program and you be GRATEFUL and THANKFUL that they committed their services for way less than they would get paid playing internationally for a year or taking a Bazley fake internship.