Miller's play style & pack line defense - Topic moved from Nico thread

[KansasCityCats]

To Miller's credit, our Offensive Efficiency Rankings have been pretty good:

2017-18: 12th
2016-17: 15th
2015-16: 26th
2014-15: 12th
2013-14: 46th
2012-13: 26th
2011-12: 94th
2010-11: 14th
2009-10: 145th

Yes.  We'd ALL love to see the Cats running this year...especially with an NBA-caliber point guard.

[PBCatfan]

To Miller's credit, our Offensive Efficiency Rankings have been pretty good:

2017-18: 12th
2016-17: 15th
2015-16: 26th
2014-15: 12th
2013-14: 46th
2012-13: 26th
2011-12: 94th
2010-11: 14th
2009-10: 145th

Yes.  We'd ALL love to see the Cats running this year...especially with an NBA-caliber point guard.

It's easy to forget how good we were the first 4 years of the Miller era after 2 of the last 3 years have been down right atrocious. What the hell happened to James Whitford? Get that guy back here lololol

[arxpert]

To Miller's credit, our Offensive Efficiency Rankings have been pretty good:

2017-18: 12th
2016-17: 15th
2015-16: 26th
2014-15: 12th
2013-14: 46th
2012-13: 26th
2011-12: 94th
2010-11: 14th
2009-10: 145th

Yes.  We'd ALL love to see the Cats running this year...especially with an NBA-caliber point guard.

I may be close to alone on this here, but maybe not --->

I think Sean Miller is one of the best coaches as a swiss army knife. I think he makes way more adjustments IN GAME than is given credit for.

THAT SAID ---> Regarding RUN AND GUN: We have always had "NBA style players" but we never had a true NBA Point Guard. TJ McConnell was a methodical IQ PG and when he was around, we had the best slew of NBA talent playing big minutes. When Lauri and Ayton were there, we had 2 7 footers on the court dominating that playing style (yes Buffalo blew us off the court with a strategy of 6 guys that were 6'5/6'6 running and gunning on poor Dusan Ristic and Ayton and making a ton of 3s in a 'make or miss' game having a day.)

Sean Millers ALWAYS adapts to the TALENT he brings in. Nico, Josh Green, Zeke APPEAR athletic. We should all agree on this. They seem like UP TEMPO players. I fully expect Nico to play fast in transition and find the cutting Green often.

In the half court set, which is bound to happen of course, I fully expect Nico to break down the defense and find the token [Brandon Ashley] Zeke in the corner for the swish stretch 4 jumper. (Offensive Efficiency)

[PBCatfan]

I want to agree with ya but Miller is pretty rigid in what he plays. He runs the pack line defense with little to no variation and has since Xavier. He will never play zone, hates to press, and would rather his guys play legitimate man to man defense and stay in front of their man instead of taking risks and looking for steals. I am not sure that makes him a swiss army knife on D but it absolutely prepares his players for the NBA where no matter how offensively dangerous you are, if you can't stay in front of your guy, you will end up overseas... just ask Jimmer Fredette or even Nick Johnson.

Don't get me started on our offense being adjustable. We need playmakers and guys who can hit shots for our offense to look decent. That is probably true of any offense in the history of basketball lol. Against any zone we resort to passing the ball around the perimeter for 15 seconds and settling for a bad shot. It is an issue lol, probably our biggest. Every March teams use Zone defenses against us, for a reason.

[KansasCityCats]

Are you saying that NBA players should play defense prior to the playoffs?  If so, Nick Johnson would have a job in a heartbeat...the guy was arguably our best defender over the past decade.

Arizona doesn't steal the ball often, but they keep opponents frustrated by forcing bad shots.  Until the past couple years, our defensive shooting % has been great.

[Liquidated]

I think Sean Miller is one of the best coaches as a swiss army knife. I think he makes way more adjustments IN GAME than is given credit for.

Honestly, he's more like switch blade. He's got 1 and one 1 move. Substitutions are not adjustments and that is literally almost the only thing he ever does in games. Early last season (in Maui) we saw double teams in the low post - that is not a pack line attribute...so that was a legitimate adjustment. But this is the guy who bragged to the media about not ever practicing the press. Not only does he not have any tricks in his bag, he has no bag. Nothing. This is not just Miller hatred. At a school like Xavier or Wichita or Buffalo, pack line might make sense. And you have to admire the sheer stubbornness and will it takes to never change anything. Throwing a 1-3-1 at someone for a few plays or an unexpected press in the middle of the game is an adjustment. Not running the same high ball screen on every single offensive possession and just trying to do anything else is an adjustment.

THAT SAID ---> Regarding RUN AND GUN: We have always had "NBA style players" but we never had a true NBA Point Guard. TJ McConnell was a methodical IQ PG and when he was around, we had the best slew of NBA talent playing big minutes.

Isn't it interesting that he is the only NBA Point Guard Miller has produced and he, as you note, does not fit the mold?

When Lauri and Ayton were there, we had 2 7 footers on the court dominating that playing style (yes Buffalo blew us off the court with a strategy of 6 guys that were 6'5/6'6 running and gunning on poor Dusan Ristic and Ayton and making a ton of 3s in a 'make or miss' game having a day.)

There are not two more different 7 footers in the world. Lauri, offensively, is a 2 guard. He was shooting .683 from three point range at one point in mid January of that year. Miller then decided to 'move him inside'. Lauri would have shattered any and all 3 point college records but Miller wanted him to play out of position and it messed with his head. Why on earth would anyone do that? He was a solid inside player, too...but a guy who can shoot like that should be parked outside. He also had a good first step and was so quick for a guy his size. IN "position-less basketball" he may be THE prototype 7 footer. 

Ayton is a pure center. I really think 4 years under good coaching in college and he is Hakeem Olajuwan or maybe even better. We'll know in 4-5 years... but of course the game is different now, even for those true center types.

Sean Millers ALWAYS adapts to the TALENT he brings in.

This is absolutely not even remotely true at all and you cannot cite a single time Miller has adjusted defensive or offensive strategy to accommodate a single players skill sets. In fact this is the biggest pitfall Miller has a coach. Rsitic, Zeus and Ayton, three totally different players all had exactly the same assignment as center. RHJ, Randolph and Parrom all played identical roles on the wing and they are significantly different skill sets. Mark Lyons didn't shoot more than Momo or PJC - he was just better at scoring.

Nico, Josh Green, Zeke APPEAR athletic. We should all agree on this. They seem like UP TEMPO players. I fully expect Nico to play fast in transition and find the cutting Green often.

Yes the DO appear to be elite level athletes. But no more or less so than Comanche, PJC, Trier, York, Simon and Allen from 2015-2016 or Nick Johnson, Gordon, Ashley and RHJ from 2013-2014... and yet Miller does not use their athleticism. Ever. They might be better Basketball players, but I doubt they are, as a group, better athletes. Aaron Gordon was redunkulous.   

In the half court set, which is bound to happen of course, I fully expect Nico to break down the defense and find the token [Brandon Ashley] Zeke in the corner for the swish stretch 4 jumper.

I do too. After 4 or 5 high ball screens that have Zeke or Chase hedging in the high post....


My complaints about Miller are well known and there are lost of them. Respectfully, you literally just described the exact opposite of everything Miller is as a basketball coach and everything he has shown us over a ten year period. He's made no major adjustments to his philosophies, ever (Lute did, K does, Izzzo does...) he makes almost no in game adjustments (largely because he can't), he has never properly utilized personnel (how is it players like Simmons and Trier explode when they get to the NBA but could not get their college teams out of the first round? Or unanimously believed first round draft picks as HS seniors end up completely undrafted (Ashley, Zeus, Trier).   

[Liquidated]

I think Sean Miller is one of the best coaches as a swiss army knife. I think he makes way more adjustments IN GAME than is given credit for.

Honestly, he's more like a switch blade. He's got 1 and only 1 move. Substitutions are not adjustments and that is literally almost the only thing he ever does in games. Early last season (in Maui) we saw double teams in the low post - that is not a pack line attribute...so that was a legitimate adjustment (and we had some success - but inexplicably, we never saw it again). This is the guy who bragged to the media about not ever practicing the press. Not only does he not have any tricks in his bag, he has no bag. Nothing. This is not just Miller hatred. At a school like Xavier or Wichita or Buffalo, pack line might make sense. And you have to admire the sheer stubbornness and will it takes to never change anything. Throwing a 1-3-1 at someone for a few plays or an unexpected press in the middle of the game is an adjustment. Not running the same high ball screen on every single offensive possession and just trying to do anything else is an adjustment. But we see nothing like that. Ever.

THAT SAID ---> Regarding RUN AND GUN: We have always had "NBA style players" but we never had a true NBA Point Guard. TJ McConnell was a methodical IQ PG and when he was around, we had the best slew of NBA talent playing big minutes.

Isn't it interesting that he is the only NBA Point Guard Miller has produced and he, as you note, does not fit the NBA PG mold?

When Lauri and Ayton were there, we had 2 7 footers on the court dominating that playing style (yes Buffalo blew us off the court with a strategy of 6 guys that were 6'5/6'6 running and gunning on poor Dusan Ristic and Ayton and making a ton of 3s in a 'make or miss' game having a day.)

There are not two more different 7 footers in the world. Lauri, offensively, is a 2 guard or wing. He was shooting .683 from three point range at one point in mid January of that year. Miller then decided to 'move him inside'. Lauri would have shattered any and all 3 point college records but Miller wanted him to play out of position and it messed with his head. Why on earth would anyone do that? He was a solid inside player, too...but a guy who can shoot like that should be parked outside (see: The Chicago Bulls, rookie of the year candidacy etc...). He also had a good first step and was so quick for a guy his size, so he could create his own shot if another big came outside. IN "position-less basketball" he may be THE prototype 7 footer. 

Ayton is a throwback pure center. I really think 4 years under good coaching in college and he is Hakeem Olajuwan or maybe even better. We'll know in 4-5 years... but of course the game is different now, see: "position-less basketball".

Sean Millers ALWAYS adapts to the TALENT he brings in.

This is absolutely not even remotely true at all and you cannot cite a single time Miller has adjusted defensive or offensive strategy to accommodate a single players skill sets. In fact this is the biggest pitfall Miller has a coach, IMO. It is not just mine. Risitic, Zeus and Ayton, three totally different players all had exactly the same assignment as center. RHJ, Randolph and Parrom all played identical roles on the wing and they are significantly different skill sets. Mark Lyons didn't shoot much more than Momo or PJC - he was just better at scoring. PJC was better at assists - but the position was coached exactly the same way for all three. 

Nico, Josh Green, Zeke APPEAR athletic. We should all agree on this. They seem like UP TEMPO players. I fully expect Nico to play fast in transition and find the cutting Green often.

Yes they DO appear to be elite level athletes. But no more or less so than Comanche, PJC, Trier, York, Simon and Allen from 2015-2016 or Nick Johnson, Gordon, Ashley and RHJ from 2013-2014... and yet Miller does not use their athleticism. Ever. They might be better Basketball players, but I doubt they are, as a group, better athletes. Aaron Gordon was redunkulous.   

In the half court set, which is bound to happen of course, I fully expect Nico to break down the defense and find the token [Brandon Ashley] Zeke in the corner for the swish stretch 4 jumper.

I can see that. After 4 or 5 high ball screens that have Zeke or Chase hedging in the high post....And it will look, schematically, exactly the same as Ristic, Ashley, Solomon, Luther or Anderson stepping out...

My complaints about Miller are well known and there are lost of them. Respectfully, you literally just described the exact opposite of everything Miller is as a basketball coach and everything he has shown us over a ten year period. He's made no major adjustments to his philosophies, ever (Lute did, K does, Izzzo does...) he makes almost no in game adjustments (largely because he can't), he has never properly utilized personnel (how is it players like Simmons and Trier explode when they get to the NBA but could not get their college teams out of the first round? Or unanimously believed first round draft picks as HS seniors end up completely undrafted (Ashley, Zeus, Trier).   

[PBCatfan]

Are you saying that NBA players should play defense prior to the playoffs?  If so, Nick Johnson would have a job in a heartbeat...the guy was arguably our best defender over the past decade.

Arizona doesn't steal the ball often, but they keep opponents frustrated by forcing bad shots.  Until the past couple years, our defensive shooting % has been great.

Exactly. That is what the pack line is designed to do, play the percentages and try to make your team take tough shots. Our teams the last couple of years have had no chance at stopping things on the perimeter and our sefense would collapse as guys are forced to rotate or bigs move up.

If Nick Johnson could defend NBA PG's he would be in the NBA right now. He simply doesn't have the lateral quickness to make that happen and he is not a shooting specialist or anything... so overseas he goes.

Also, TJ Mcconnell was a little better defender than Nick johnson, as was Rondae.

[KansasCityCats]

Barring an injury, Josh Green is getting drafted...high.

How did Miller not utilize the athleticism of his recruits?  Trier constantly got to the basket, NJ was known for flying through the lane, RHJ played inside AND out and Gordon was one of the best dunkers in Arizona history.  It isn't fair to compare guys like PJC, Comanche, Simon, York & Allen...players who weren't known for their athleticism.

Xavier/Wichita/Buffalo should be playing the zone...not us.  Zone is for teams that do NOT have athleticism...and can't cover their men.  It's for lazy schools that don't understand how to go through screens & switch on pick-and-rolls.  Arizona's defensive scheme has consistently kept opponent's shooting percentages at a minimum since Miller's arrival.

Lauri shot 41.7% from 3PT range in OOC.  He had a hot January & a cold February/March.  That wasn't a result of his position change.  If it were, he'd be shooting 50%+ during the first half of the season.  https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/lauri-markkanen-1/gamelog/2017/

In reality, I'm hoping that Jack Murphy can bring a new offensive mentality to this team.  Miller understands the fundamentals, but I agree that he needs to pick up the tempo.  Perhaps Jack can channel his inner Lute...

[ollieboy5150]

Deja vu Kansas, as I remember hoping Romar would bring a breath of fresh air to our offense too!  Ah well, hope you are right with Murph.