I see a lot of criticism of Miller in here, and it's well deserved. One thing I've struggled with is even with Millers struggles, who could we realistically replace him with that would be an upgrade?
Everyone remembers the Tim Floyd debacle, and even UCLA's two recent coaching searches proved the program doesn't hold the weight it once did and that the fans think it should.
The facts are we can't afford to pay the same as many other schools, SM is the 30th highest paid coach. The pac-12 conference is not as competitive as other power 5 and Larry Scott is running it into the ground, national exposure is not as good, harder to recruit to AZ than other blue bloods , and who they he'll would want to work for heeke. There are many positives too, but I'm just saying look at the whole picture.
For me, I'd go after Greg a Marshall, Chris Beard first but that's a long shot. After that I'd look at Bruce Pearl or Damon stoudemire. Don't really think Damon has proven himself yet, and not a fan of hiring alumni just because they're alumni but he's the best option of all alumni
Who would you guys target?
Unfortunately I think Chris Beard is a lifer at Tech. Has coached there under Bob Knight and has family there as well. Greg Marshall seems like the easy choice but I'd be a bit hesitant hiring another big name mid major coach especially after guys like Shaka, Archie, Dan Hurley and recently Sean Miller have flamed out in their respective P6 jobs. I guess considering the athletic department has backed a known cheater over the past couple of years we could go all out and land the best cheater in the game in Rick Pitino or even go after Bruce Pearl but I wouldn't hold my breath for neither.
But realistically I think the biggest name we could attract and probably the safest bet would be Matt Painter (49 years). In 14 seasons at Purdue he's won 3 Big 10 championships and made the tournament 11 times (78%) including 5 sweet sixteens and last year's elite 8. His postseason success isn't great and he's struggled to recruit at Purdue. But recruiting at Arizona would make it easier plus he's always been the guy to do more with less.
Then you got Lavall Jordan at Butler who he currently has ranked in the top 5 and in contention for a 1 seed. His body of work is limited but after this year no doubt he's going to be in high demand plus he's only 40 years old.
The biggest wildcard and my personal choice would be Tommy Lloyd (45 years) Mark Few's top man at Gonzaga. He's been under Few for almost 20 years and has been their top international recruiter during that time. Plus no doubt he's key to their top flight player development which in my opinion is the best in the country.
Other names: Drew Scott, Randy Bennett, Brian Dutcher
There aren't any upgrades overall, but one thing to consider is someone would want to have to come to an Arizona team that would likely see Dalen Terry decommit, maybe even Akinjo, and also maybe witness some transferring of what we have. Overall a full rebuild with basically nothing. Not sure how many times someone can sit out, but B Will cannot be depended on physically. Jordan Brown, Baker probably wanted to play for Miller. So I don't really know what would happen if a coaching change were to be made in this particular year in this particular situation. This is not even taking FBI/sanctions into account. It might be way too much for someone decent to be interested in right now. Maybe if Miller was extended for a short period of time and judged on performance (just enough to pass by the sanction stuff if it ever comes). But I don't see a need for a change. I'd rather stay true and if Miller will stay with us it could get really interesting in the long run when 1 and Done stuff is over with and he can build a longer lasting team again like with Momo/Derrick/Sol - Zews/Bash/RHJ/TJ etc inserting 1 Gordon/Stanley/Ayton per year to a core.
Good post. I think it would be difficult to replace Miller, unless we pulled in a guy like Luke Walton.
Gregg Marshall is terrible with the media. He keeps to himself & the city of Tucson would not embrace him.
Chris Beard asks his players to play tough D. He won't be bringing in 5* talent, but he would absolutely win. It would also cost a fortune to lure him.
Bruce Pearl would be amazing, but it would just bring back the reputation of "cheating". The NCAA hates him, but at least ESPN loves him.
Mark Few is never leaving. The guy is a legend.
There aren't many other guys out there worth pursuing, that will keep us relevant on a regular basis. Although Miller isn't hanging Final Four banners, he has rebuilt the program that almost died during the stroke/interim transition.
For me, Luke is the only target...until TJ retires and returns to our bench.
I've been thinking about this subject more and have mostly concluded that a change would only happen in the event of a significant NCAA action.
The issue is obviously complex and we're all just fans, but...
1. The question posed on "if not Miller, then who?" raises the interesting prospect of whom is even available realistically that would want to step into the program at this time. It's not a coveted blue blood, there is a potential for NCAA action, and the fan base can be rabid (FF or bust!).
2. Of some of the names that typically get thrown about, the best of them are in situations that are superior to coming to Arizona (i.e. Few being able to hang in a crappier conference and make the tourney annually with little stress). I could potentially see a rising star mid-major coach that would take the position, but I don't personally know that could possibly be.
3. Would that rising star be better than the record Miller has put together? Very hard to concretely say yes. The expected 10 year tenure was supposed to have a rockier start and a better finish, but the record is actually pretty good. Of course we want titles and FFs; if that's the only knock, a wrong call would have shut that argument down.
4. Would Miller willingly leave? Outside of pure frustration, I don't think so -- this is the major point I've been thinking about the most. There was a time when Miller might have left for that coveted east coast position, but in today's climate I don't think he'd be the pick anymore...and would he really leave for a lower paying job at a lesser known school? No.
If you want Miller gone, I think the only way I see it happening is via pure disaster (NCAA action or a complete collapse of the team). I don't want to see either of those scenarios, and the rebuild to towards relevance would take probably 5-10 years. Personally, I'd rather ride it out with an under-performance here and there...but I want Miller to do a better job of bringing in Xs and Os coaches to go along with his recruiting ability.
Just my 2 cents; I appreciate reading everyone else's, whether we agree or not.
The alumni would start to grumble if the team plays down to its opponents throughout the rest of the season (like the OSU game).
I personally think that performance was a fluke and Miller's job won't be discussed for the remainder of the year because the Cats will make a nice run.
We're finally getting healthy and we have the depth to win. Since the PAC-12 is beating itself up, we still have a good chance to win the conference.
what if they grafted Lute's head to Luke's body?
cause that makes about as much sense as replacing CSM for losing after going to the buzzer in OT at Corvallis in the (so far) best game ofthe year
I think this fan base has been extremely patient and loyal to Miller throughout the last few years of disappointment and scandal, which is why the frustration is mounting.
Personally I think the entire fbi issue has shook miller. His teams just up to that point played hard, had an edge, and he held them to that. That was always his coaching strength and it helped mask his in-game coaching issues. Since then it seems he has struggled to create accountability, teamwork, and a team identity each year. Maybe it's the guys he's brought in, maybe it's his own issues. Either way it's on him.
I hadn't thought of lavall Jordan, but he's worth a look as well should something happen. I also don't think Luke Walton is a solution, he really hasn't proven anything since leaving Steve Kerr, and I always stuggle with NBA guys as recruiting is a grind. Is he really going to want to do that?
Billy Donovan?
Sorry but any coach with NBA coaching experience should be automatically disqualified. Bringing one in is just asking for more trouble.
Anybody with NBA experience has instant credibility with recruits.
If a young kid like Luke can add experience to his bench, he could easily dominate the PAC-12. I doubt he'd want to go anywhere else, which could provide stability.
Calipari failed in the league and that worked out pretty well for Memphis/UK (during most seasons).
right now i would trade danny hurley for miller in a heartbeat
Billy Donovan would be a good choice.
Quote from: Wildcat4life on January 14, 2020, 03:53:08 PM
Billy Donovan would be a good choice.
There's probably no more than 3 programs that wouldn't trade their current coach for Donovan. I don't think Arizona could afford him
The question is a lot harder to answer.
Who can you bring in to keep Arizona atop the PAC-12, continues recruiting success and every 3-4 years can build a Final Four contender?
That question is a lot harder to answer and even though some may be tired of Miller, you can't name 10 jobs that a coach would pick over Arizona right now.
Quote from: Manillathrilla on January 14, 2020, 03:17:49 PM
right now i would trade danny hurley for miller in a heartbeat
Seriously? UCONN is on their way to another .500 season...and last season was pretty ugly. Their only decent win is Florida, who has vastly underachieved so far this season.
UConn is what Arizona would have become without Sean Miller and what Arizona will likely become without him if you think he has to go this or next year. Billy Donovan won't come here with sanctions over his head. No one of stature will come here and have to play from behind from the beginning ON TOP of having nobody on the roster except Ira Lee and even Ira would be a good piece to add to a veteran team as a transfer to extend his college career. I would even expect Christian Koloko, Baker, and Jordan Brown to transfer out and apply for an exception to play immediately. Dalen Terry would decommit. Akinjo would probably leave too.
Quote from: arxpert on January 15, 2020, 11:26:53 AM
UConn is what Arizona would have become without Sean Miller and what Arizona will likely become without him if you think he has to go this or next year. Billy Donovan won't come here with sanctions over his head. No one of stature will come here and have to play from behind from the beginning ON TOP of having nobody on the roster except Ira Lee and even Ira would be a good piece to add to a veteran team as a transfer to extend his college career. I would even expect Christian Koloko, Baker, and Jordan Brown to transfer out and apply for an exception to play immediately. Dalen Terry would decommit. Akinjo would probably leave too.
The same uconn that has 4 titles since ours? Not so bad.
I think they assumed that we would turn into UCONN "post Calhoun". Ollie won the single title with Calhoun's players...but they made just ONE other tournament since then...and didn't advance past the 2nd round. That would be a dark place for Arizona Basketball.
I'd like a coach who had previous experience of getting to the Final Four - like Lute had when he came to Arizona. Someone who has shown he can win the big game. Beard would be a great hire imo - he took TXTech to an EE & FF in his first 3 yrs there. And this year he has his team ranked in a tough conference (already beat 'Ville when they were #1) - and he does it with 3 & 4 stars, no one&dones. I couldn't even name one guy on TXTech. He's shown he can develop guys that play hard for him. We need that.
Yes KC -- I should have made it clear to the stickler's -- The POST CALHOUN ERA UCONN Huskies.
Does one extra basket actually change what people think 9 years later or would that Year 2 Final 4 just be shit all over anyway? At what point does recency bias end? This is a massively overhyped, overanalyzed pseudo drought in the big picture.
Miller Elite 8 30% of his career here. 2nd weekend 50%. Never blown out in the 2nd weekend like most teams on "runs" who don't belong . Like the 100-65 type scores. Or the token 93-77 shalacking we put on Duke in the sweet 16.
Quote from: arxpert on January 15, 2020, 07:47:37 PM
Yes KC -- I should have made it clear to the stickler's -- The POST CALHOUN ERA UCONN Huskies.
Does one extra basket actually change what people think 9 years later or would that Year 2 Final 4 just be shit all over anyway? At what point does recency bias end? This is a massively overhyped, overanalyzed pseudo drought in the big picture.
Miller Elite 8 30% of his career here. 2nd weekend 50%. Never blown out in the 2nd weekend like most teams on "runs" who don't belong . Like the 100-65 type scores. Or the token 93-77 shalacking we put on Duke in the sweet 16.
So you want us to overlook the past 3-4 years you know the trend, but cling to stuff from like 6-9 years ago. 3 elite eights that's great you know what else has happened 30% of the time completely missing the tournament or is that not big picture. But you do have a point people do but too much stock on these single games. If Miller had advanced to the final four in 2011 or 2014 it wouldn't have made a difference he would still be a poor coach today. You see it all the time with coaches going on lucky final four runs, I mean Kevin Ollie has a national championship under his belt who the hell would want him as their head coach.
That's exactly my point. Some people are fixated on a Final Four banner as the ultimate narrative. If Miller got it Year 2 there would still be people suffering from recency bias today who could care less.
So your comment basically proves that a big segment of Miller's critics most likely wouldn't even be happy today if he had a Final Four and wasn't known as the guy who hasn't gotten over the hump as opposed to the guy who got there close to 10 years ago, then almost got there again 4 more times but has fizzled out.
At a certain point who is worth appeasing besides the supporters?
Miller is a great recruiter of talent, but not a great recruiter of needs and fit. I looked into Miller's actual record while at the UofA and he has a losing record vs ranked teams while being ranked as well. Miller has only beaten one team ranked higher, that being Duke. I'm starting to believe he is a good coach, but not a great coach. Maybe the early success was based on team dynamics, seeding and a heavy reliance on the coaching staff. The past five years he has been mediocre at best and under his stewardship the program has been scrutinized on a national level. I don't know what the answer is, but something needs to change, be it support staff, recruiting, scheduling or a HC change. When the program is in a downward trend something needs to change. Fingers crossed that everything changes and the next five years are much better. Bear Down it's game day!
Quote from: arxpert on January 16, 2020, 09:08:46 AM
That's exactly my point. Some people are fixated on a Final Four banner as the ultimate narrative. If Miller got it Year 2 there would still be people suffering from recency bias today who could care less.
So your comment basically proves that a big segment of Miller's critics most likely wouldn't even be happy today if he had a Final Four and wasn't known as the guy who hasn't gotten over the hump as opposed to the guy who got there close to 10 years ago, then almost got there again 4 more times but has fizzled out.
At a certain point who is worth appeasing besides the supporters?
I totally agree. We could have two final fours and the, what-have-you-done for-me-lately cabal would still be demanding change. It is what it is--there are a lot of fickle people in this world, many of whom find it reasonable to hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. Oh well, that's life in an imperfect world.
Quote from: jumpinjohnny on January 16, 2020, 10:01:55 AM
Quote from: arxpert on January 16, 2020, 09:08:46 AM
That's exactly my point. Some people are fixated on a Final Four banner as the ultimate narrative. If Miller got it Year 2 there would still be people suffering from recency bias today who could care less.
So your comment basically proves that a big segment of Miller's critics most likely wouldn't even be happy today if he had a Final Four and wasn't known as the guy who hasn't gotten over the hump as opposed to the guy who got there close to 10 years ago, then almost got there again 4 more times but has fizzled out.
At a certain point who is worth appeasing besides the supporters?
I totally agree. We could have two final fours and the, what-have-you-done for-me-lately cabal would still be demanding change. It is what it is--there are a lot of fickle people in this world, many of whom find it reasonable to hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. Oh well, that's life in an imperfect world.
If I get A's and B's as a freshman and Sophomore but fail all my classes as an upperclassmen should I still be able to graduate? Miller could win a national title he would still have to perform at a high level consistently to keep his job and keep fans happy. All that does is buy patience from a fan base but ultimately you need stay consistent you can't just win a title or advance to a F4 and then flame out or you'll end up like Kevin Ollie. The one consistent in the Miller era is recruiting, but on and off the court has been a roller coaster and lows have been much more impactful then the highs I think that's why a good portion of fans are ready for change.
I don't think there needs to be a change at Head Coach at this point. But...
(https://media.tenor.com/images/2f4c0f67e86005869b7ee171afebb754/tenor.gif)
Quote from: ChrisZona on January 16, 2020, 10:45:17 AM
Quote from: jumpinjohnny on January 16, 2020, 10:01:55 AM
Quote from: arxpert on January 16, 2020, 09:08:46 AM
That's exactly my point. Some people are fixated on a Final Four banner as the ultimate narrative. If Miller got it Year 2 there would still be people suffering from recency bias today who could care less.
So your comment basically proves that a big segment of Miller's critics most likely wouldn't even be happy today if he had a Final Four and wasn't known as the guy who hasn't gotten over the hump as opposed to the guy who got there close to 10 years ago, then almost got there again 4 more times but has fizzled out.
At a certain point who is worth appeasing besides the supporters?
I totally agree. We could have two final fours and the, what-have-you-done for-me-lately cabal would still be demanding change. It is what it is--there are a lot of fickle people in this world, many of whom find it reasonable to hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. Oh well, that's life in an imperfect world.
If I get A's and B's as a freshman and Sophomore but fail all my classes as an upperclassmen should I still be able to graduate? Miller could win a national title he would still have to perform at a high level consistently to keep his job and keep fans happy. All that does is buy patience from a fan base but ultimately you need stay consistent you can't just win a title or advance to a F4 and then flame out or you'll end up like Kevin Ollie. The one consistent in the Miller era is recruiting, but on and off the court has been a roller coaster and lows have been much more impactful then the highs I think that's why a good portion of fans are ready for change.
Well, if you get all A's as a Freshman and Sophmore in the Pre-Reqs, than get all C's as a Junior and Senior in your Major, your overall GPA will be something like 3.0 and your Major GPA will be something like 2.0. So there is recency bias in school too, however when you apply for a job you can still put 3.0 on your resume because its true and a fact of your life. If you are asked what your GPA was in your focus of study (major) than you say 2.0. It's upto the employer to decide if you are worth hiring for full body of work or for a specific skillset.
This is also true in the reverse. If you start as a Frosh/Soph with all C's, but finish as a Junior/Senior with all A's you will be the same 3.0, but people might view you as someone who has progressed as opposed to regressed.
Miller still won the Pac12 conference and/or Conference Tourney twice each in these recent "down years" so it's not really that black and white. There is a lot to like and some room for improvement.
Winning the Conference Title Banner and the Conf. Tourney's are not exactly equal to getting an A+ on the final, but getting a C in the class overall cuz you didn't do well on the first couple tests and never did your homework.
Or in another way to look at it, getting A's all semester on almost everything, but failing the final (big dance) so you get a C after all that effort. Some classes are like that, way too much emphasis on the final exam, but maybe you had a bad day or a personal issue that hurt your performance that 1 day and it would be a shame to give in and let that define who you are for life.
Time to revisit this?
Almost anyone. Billy Donovan, Joseph Blair, would both be great starting points.
May I suggest anything with a pulse and ability to bench Dylan Smith
Choke away a 20+ lead. Sit the guy for the last 5 minutes of the first half who just hit 4 threes. Bench Max for one quick missed three. Use all your time-outs. Start the senior who choles on his ft's. Again. Lose by one. Again.
Why do some think we can't do better than miller? We keep him, and at this rate Adia will have more fans at her games than sean at his.
Anyone. Literally anyone with a pulse would be better than Miller. The idiot is destroying the UofA program.
I am going to preface this by saying Miller is not going to get canned. This team can lose the rest of their games and Miller will be back. Miller has Henke and Robbins so tied around his finger, it's comical.
If Miller is bad as everyone is saying/detailing, then Haas at Stanford would be an upgrade. It won't be a problem getting a Grade A coach. He will probably not have the name recognition (those guys are not going anywhere), but the older re-treads come with old systems and habits. I'd go for a younger mind that has proven he can coach. The problem lies in recruiting. Is everyone willing to take a hit in recruiting? This is subjective of course, since some of us would rather get 4 star guys; hoping they are somewhat equal to 5 stars in ability, but stay longer.
Quote from: 2012Cat on January 14, 2020, 07:49:06 PM
Quote from: Wildcat4life on January 14, 2020, 03:53:08 PM
Billy Donovan would be a good choice.
There's probably no more than 3 programs that wouldn't trade their current coach for Donovan. I don't think Arizona could afford him
Have you seen what Miller makes (and stands to make)?
Miller is 30-21 since our early bounce from Buffalo.
Henke and Miller have to go....if only I was one the multimillionaire contrubutors....alas I am not ......so who give a rip about how I feel.
I support coach Miller and am glad we have him as our coach. I wish he'd be more flexible and play more zone when his players lack skills to player his preferred pack line effectively, but otherwise I think he is a very good coach.
At the end of the day, he's not on the court—players need to wear it. But I'm really impressed with his approach of motivating players and keeping them engaged. He doesn't throw them under the bus.
Lastly, We all should recognize that the NCAA matters are continuing to drag on the program. It remains to be seen I guess how much of this really is Miller's doing. It is pretty impressive how well we've done in spite of this if you think about it.
Quote from: PacSouthwest on January 26, 2020, 01:09:03 PM
Quote from: 2012Cat on January 14, 2020, 07:49:06 PM
Quote from: Wildcat4life on January 14, 2020, 03:53:08 PM
Billy Donovan would be a good choice.
There's probably no more than 3 programs that wouldn't trade their current coach for Donovan. I don't think Arizona could afford him
Have you seen what Miller makes (and stands to make)?
Yea, and he's like #30. Donovan would take top 5 money
the late great Dick Tomey
oh wait, since he doesn't have the pulse people thing is the only necessary qualification, Coach Tomey can't be a replacement candidate
but he can serve as cautionary tale
Tomey took us to our best ever but then had a bad year and resigned (interesting story about that)
we've struggled up and down inconsistent still no Rose Bowl or PAC title
same thing with Miller
we're a program with three years of allegations and investigations, we're frequently mentioned as a target of upcoming sanctions (which won't happen IMO, but still hangs over us)
CSM has a nearly .750 w/l record, we will not be able to attract anyone with better
anyone we hire to replace Miller will face the same recruiting struggles, but he consistenly brought in talent despite the forces working against him
any new coach would face those same forces, and maybe, just maybe we'll hit miracle-level paydirt and get a hotshot who can instantly, without missing as beat, recruit that right kids and then quickly turn them into a steamroller
more likely we'll struggle with mediocrity, find a budget replacement on his way up then melt his ass under the pressure of a fanbase that is so spoiled and entitled
this is not to say that we need to settle, I expect Miller's desire to win to drive him, he'll learn from his mistakes and improve as a coach
I think he'll win a National title and enter the HoF, I hope he does both as a Wildcat.
so drop the pitchforks boys and girls, unless you want to jump on the carousel to mediocrity
I never said a negative thing about miller for the first seven yrs of his tenure here. Always gave him the benefit of the doubt knowing that it's difficult to replace someone with Lute's legacy. But it is precisely because of that winning legacy that Lute built at Arizona that it is time to raise concerns where this program is heading. And I am not a bandwagon or fairweather fan for doing so.
Yes, Lute had first round exits - 9 of them - in his 23 trips to the ncaa's. And they were painful, each one of em. But the difference is he proved he could beat the best. He got us a FF in his 5th yr here - then another six yrs later - three yrs later our title - and finally four yrs after that AZ is in the title game. Us fans knew Lute had the ability to win and put banners in the rafters. And that lessons the pain of early bounces. And banners is what a top program should expect. Not just conference banners, but Final Four and championship banners. How long do we give miller to get there? Another decade? Or do most fans no longer care if we do?
I'm ready for someone who can develop players and not just recruit over them when a bright, shiny 5* comes along. I'm ready for someone who will not micro-manage his team with negative re-inforcement, but who leads with encouragement and inspires. I'm ready to watch a team that has fun playing. I'm ready for a coach who is flexible and can adjust, who doesn't just 'do what we do' when what you're doing hasn't been working. I'm ready for a change. I was a Cats fan before miller, and I will be a Cats fan after miller.
I'm ready for a coach that's not such a control freak. I have been attending UofA basketball games for over 30 years and I have never been less excited to utilize my season tickets. The games over the past three years are not even remotely fun to watch. The style of play in painful to watch, the actions of the HC is not remotely professional and lastly the players don't appear to be having any fun. I would rather watch a team with the same record, but are having fun and a joy to watch. Miller is like the supervisor that walks in the room and ever single person present get stressed out. I'm ready for a change and as sooner the better!
Miller has done a hell of a job post FBI scandal. He dealt with recovering from an a scandal that would've killed almost any other program. He has the program back on the right track with 3 freshman as the core of our team. Let that sink in for a second. Three freshman. Yes, we're losing close games on the road and they're making mistakes, but this team on the verge of breaking through the that wall.
Miller is still considered one of the best coaches in college basketball. No I don't like or agree with a lot of Miller's decisions on subs and timeouts, but that's easy to do after every loss.
If Miller is gone after this year or next then who knows who we end up with. I see all the names being mentioned in his thread, but what happens if none of those coaches want to come to Arizona and we have to settle? It almost happened after Lute was gone. With possible NCAA sanctions coming it could happen.
If you want Miller gone that's fine and I understand why. Just realize that there are a lot of once proud programs like UCONN, Indiana, UCLA, and a whole lot more who have completely fallen off. If Miller stays I don't see that happening at Arizona even with ESPN and the whole world against him the last couple of years.
Just giving my 2 cents on this topic.
I agree wild I support Sean miller an want him to do well an Arizona desperately needs a deep ncaa run this year I think about that all the time when people want Miller gone it's like who do you think can do better an who will wanna come here of course Miller makes mistakes all coaches do but i wanna see if this team can make a run in ncaa tournament.
Saying Miller has done a hell of a job post FBI is a stretch. Auburn, Kansas, USC, Louisville have all recovered and seem to be producing at a much higher level. Using the FBI at this point is just a crutch to explain away mediocrity.
Many of us defended Miller through the FBI scandal. We don't dislike Miller. We just don't think he's a very good coach anymore. We've given up a decade hoping he will "turn the corner" and find a winning formula. He hasn't, and likely won't. We seriously want him to succeed because it means Arizona is succeeding. But he's not.
He kept his head above water because of his ability to use the Arizona brand to recruit, but then he wastes the talent when it hits the floor. Honestly, just about any coach would have a similar record to Miller with as much talent as Miller has had to work with. So when you say, "If not Miller, then who?"... anyone that has a winning record at a high mid-major (who doesn't have the benefit of the Arizona brand on the recruiting trail) could probably step in and do more with the talent that ARIZONA attracts.
We all know how this season is going to play out. We may squeeze into the tournament and get bounced in the first weekend. We may have to settle for the NIT. In any case other than an Elite 8, it'll be time to move on or watch Arizona whither away into irrelevance.
Quote from: ichi on January 27, 2020, 09:19:10 AM
the late great Dick Tomey
oh wait, since he doesn't have the pulse people thing is the only necessary qualification, Coach Tomey can't be a replacement candidate
but he can serve as cautionary tale
Tomey took us to our best ever but then had a bad year and resigned (interesting story about that)
we've struggled up and down inconsistent still no Rose Bowl or PAC title
Ichi, I was one of the the harshest critics of those that drove out Tomey, he was a great football coach for us and all that you say about him is true. I think, though, it's important to remember that our expectations in football and basketball are completely different. We'd all be pretty happy with a football coach that has had Millers results, but this isn't football and we rightly expect more.
The issue is that we all expect more from basketball. Arizona only has one national title, and is still young as a competitive program.
If we drive away a coach that wins conference titles and has a top-10 winning percentage, it's hard to tell whether we will trend up or down.
We could hire a Billy Donovan, who earns two titles and takes a bigger job in the league. We could hire a Mark Few, who sustained success for a long time. We could hire a Shaka Smart, who kept Texas irrelevant. Or we could treat Miller like Tomey, and the program could downward spiral into an abyss (like UCLA).
My point is that there are tons of mixed emotions within the fanbase. It's hard to tell what will happen, but firing Miller will be a risk.
Replacing Miller at best is a crap shoot. Especially with Heeke and Robbins at the helm. I would much rather see Miller be forced to hire better assistant coaches. Ones that will bring us a better understanding of playing against a zone defense among other things. Miller is very stubborn but can definitely recruit and get players. What he needs is help on in game coaching. Someone he will listen to. I don't see anyone on the bench right now that he will listen do and adjust.
Miller actually listen to someone other then his brother or father, please stop kidding yourself. His ego is almost as big as his appetite for nachos.
Hard to disagree with TJ74's comment.
Arizona was a consistent Final Four contender when guys like Archie, Book, Pasternak, Phelps and Romar were on staff.
Despite the recent struggles, I wouldn't be shocked if we somehow sneak into Atlanta. There's a lot of talent on the floor and there aren't a lot of schools that are playing at a high level. Nobody is a lock to go far in the tourney this season, which is advantageous for us.
Quote from: TJ74 on January 28, 2020, 08:31:28 AM
Replacing Miller at best is a crap shoot. Especially with Heeke and Robbins at the helm. I would much rather see Miller be forced to hire better assistant coaches. Ones that will bring us a better understanding of playing against a zone defense among other things. Miller is very stubborn but can definitely recruit and get players. What he needs is help on in game coaching. Someone he will listen to. I don't see anyone on the bench right now that he will listen do and adjust.
I agree with everything you said. A head coach at this level, though, should have a better understanding of playing against a zone defense (they're much improved with Nico), should be flexible and be able to make adjustments with minimal input from assistants, and he should already be a good in game coach. An assistant coach at this level should definitely be able to recruit and get players. Keeping Miller, at this point, seems to be a crap shoot too.
With that said, everything changes in a couple of years with the end of "one and done", and he may then have a chance to develop players. I look forward to this. On the other hand, I still won't like the ugly, boring pack line defense, and (what seems to be) his inability to be flexible and work to his players strengths. I'll still get frustrated by bad end game decision making and the lack of interior offense.
Wild-I love your dedication and support of this forum, but what universe do you live , declaring Miller as one of the best coaches in college basketball? Obviously you don't pay attention to other forums, "experts", outside the local market, media professional that for the most part think Miller has done less with more then any other coach in college basketball Lucky for Miller he was gifted some extremely talent freshman in his back yard, (Ayton, Mannion and Williams) otherwise he would have been gone three years ago. Secondly, Miller was the Steward of the program, during the the numerous NCAA infractions, including an assistant coach, ( longest tenure) being incarcerated for infractions under his watch. Miller brought this upon himself, and should not be rewarded for guiding the program under difficult circumstances, which he is ultimately responsible for. Oh wait I forget he takes zero responsibility for! It's sad when a program is associated with Cheating, right, wrong or different and still can't win! This the lowest the program has ever been! Sad!
I would prioritize defense with any hire. Stevens and Donovan are the top tier but seem unlikely. Then I would offer Beard or Drew. Gets pretty thin after that with guys like Randy Bennett and McDermott who are more offensive minded and recruiting specialists like Wojo. Pretty thin field to be honest and I don't even know if the first 2 tiers would even consider the gig.
How dramatic. "The lowest the program has ever been"?
You understand that Arizona only had two seasons that included wins in the NCAA tourney prior to 1986, right?
High end recruits want to play in Tucson, 14,500 true fans show up to every home game and our program is respected on a national level.
Miller is not coaching this program to its potential but he is far from failing. There's still plenty of hope to make a deep run with this year's talented team.
Okay good point. The lowest the program has been over the last 30 years. 14500 fans. I have been to every home game this year and it's no where near being sold out. When was the last time the men's program needed to market ticket sales? I guess we can keep looking to the past and dwell on those memories or simply enjoy the next five years of underperforming Miller.
You're there & I only get to one game per year, so I trust that there are open seats. It seems packed from the TV & the Cats are still way ahead of the rest of the Pac...but continued struggles will definitely bring down the numbers.
Oregon.
Quote from: Wildcat4life on January 29, 2020, 07:20:21 AM
Okay good point. The lowest the program has been over the last 30 years. 14500 fans. I have been to every home game this year and it's no where near being sold out. When was the last time the men's program needed to market ticket sales? I guess we can keep looking to the past and dwell on those memories or simply enjoy the next five years of underperforming Miller.
why are you going to every home game then if you clearly aren't happy with Miller and the team currently? My 92 yr old grandma goes to every home game, my aunt also goes to just about every home game and I'm a die hard fan living 1,700 miles away in Middle Tennessee that would love to come to Tucson and watch more games but I get out there about every 4 years for a few days to watch them play 2 games thanks to
My grandma giving me the rare extra ticket that becomes available to
Her. My great uncle is a platinum wildcat donor every single year who has had premium seats for the past 40 plus years that I would love to have for just a few games every year, let alone for one whole season. I'm jealous of people that get to go to every game at McKale and I definitely would support them and be happy to attend 15 home games a year. My first game at Mckale came in 2003 with Salim, Iggy, Adams, Frye and I was 20 yrs old at the time and I had goosebumps being there and almost had tears in my eyes from the joy of being there. Just enjoy it man because If I was there I would definitely be living it up. The last time I was there was 2 years ago, Millers first game back from being Vindicated and that crowd was so electric when he came out And once again goosebumps for me.
It's because I want the program to get past Miller and find a better HC. It's not simply about the wins or losses, the direction the program is going in not a positive one. The games aren't nearly as fun to watch. The style of play is boring, out of conference games are against inferior competition, constant recycling of players and coaches doesn't afford any stake in team. I've had Season ticket for the entire Miller era and the last 8 years under Lute and the energy, excitement and thrill has gone away. JMO. I'm sorry if I don't agree with the Miller supports, but I see him for what he is... a below average coach that is an above average recruiter. His down falls greatly out way his abilities. Last post regarding Miller until after the season, maybe the cats make a deep run and Miller changes everything to prove me wrong.
That's ok I get it and agree to a degree but I still wish I could attend every home game or at least more of them. I still proudly wear U of A gear here in Tennessee and watch every game that isn't on Pac 12 network. Do you really think Miller be be fired and or leave Arizona before his contract is up in 2 years? I really believe he will work out his contract but won't be extended unless they win a National Title by then or possibly a final 4 berth. I agree that the style of play isn't very fun and wish Miller would let his guys play more like Altman seems to do and a lot more coaches but we don't have the same talent as the teams from 2013-2017 overall. Yeah the 3 freshman are good but Green isn't consistent, Mannion I wish was more aggressive and scored more and the upperclassmen aren't that talented in my opinion. There was way more talent and depth of those back to back elite 8 teams
I don't get the complaining about ooc scheduling its done years in advance and every year different teams are legit. We played the two top ranked teams in the country this year so quit ur damn bitching
When they're clicking this team is incredibly fun to watch, that behind the back pass from Nico to Josh is a prime example, or that big Lee block, I find myself thinking how exciting this team is
all they need to do is play a full 40 of that brand
I'm not bitching, just expressing how I feel. Don't be a dick!
Quote from: ichi on January 27, 2020, 09:19:10 AM
CSM has a nearly .750 w/l record, we will not be able to attract anyone with better
anyone we hire to replace Miller will face the same recruiting struggles, but he consistenly brought in talent despite the forces working against him
This does not make much sense to me. You act as though Miller is coaching at an extremely high level and we just want to dump a great coach. The whole reason for wanting a new coach is because the current coach is not performing. If he is not coaching well (his words, not mine), it means he falls low on the coaching talent list. So, you can't say we can't do any better if 50% - 75% of the coached out there are better than him.
Regarding your second point about recruiting struggles; you have it backwards. (1) Miller does not struggle with recruiting; and (2) he recruits well when there are not 'forces' working against his recruiting efforts, but the time there actually were "forces" (ESPN, FBI trial) working against him, he lost 2 recruiting cycles.
Miller is a great coach, he'll be in the HoF, he'll go to the FF and win a national championship
his assistant at the time took money under the table and that almost derailed the program, his leadership saw us through that rough patch so far but it took its toll, we lost some recruits and the whole affair put a lot of pressure of the program. that has side effects on the team.
last year the team struggled, no doubt, and this year's team hasn't lived up to the massive hype, but we're competitive in the PAC, just because we lost by 1 in Corvallis does not mean that Miller is not performing
I think that the fans who want Miller replaced are panicking and want to abandon Miller for an unknown. I think we will not be able to replace him with anyone who will do better - for a long time.
I don't know where you get that 50-75% of the coaches out there are better than Miller, if you could explain how you came up with that please share, 'cause its nonsense.
Everyone struggles to recruit, it is very difficult. When I say recruiting struggles I mean that every quality prospect is recruited hard by a lot of schools, there's the shenanigans going on behind the scenes, kids do strange things, so everyone, including Miller, faces struggles, and who ever replaces Miller would not only have to recruit, he'd have to recruit to a school that is under a cloud still, we still may get penalized for Book or PHelps or something. Anyone else would have lost more than the two recruiting cycles you mentioned.
One thing I learned during my career was to understand the difference between a truly weak employee and one who had potential but was struggling. I learned that by having a little patience I could help my good ones who were having a rough time get through it, and afterward they were better for the experience. Miller is not a loser, he's just having a little down patch, from which he'll recover (unless the overly-entitled fans drive him out)
Bear Down
Overly-entitled,wow a little hypocritical of you, one moment you don't want us to judge Miller and two seconds later you judge a fan base that wants results. However you spin it the last five years has been way below Arizona standards. Miller is a highly compensated adult, with a support structure( fans, arena, facilities and a national brand) with that expectations are high. As a coach of and top 10 program expectation at what you agreed to steward of, in turn fans have expectation and that is not entitlement, that's life. If the program performs at the same level two, three, four more season is that enough or should we wait 10 years or more? I love that your so positive regarding Miller, but please don't quote his winning percentage, if Miller scheduled games like Olson or if the PAC was as tough during Olson's tenure as the coach I would be amazed if he was over 500.
I judge Miller every day, I never said that we shouldn't
I just think he is doing as well as can be expected and that any attempt to replace is misguided
and that 'Cats fan are spoiled, we lost by 1 in OT to a highly ranked Ducks team in Corvallis and so-called fans were screaming for his termination
when you say that we're down the last few seasons, and then ask if we should wait 10 years or more IF he doesn't produce, you're assuming he's going to fail
realize that there is another potential outcome, that we could replace him and he goes on to the HoF and a National elsewhere while we languish under someone else, that is just as plausible
As a manager I would evaluate each employee, if they had potential we supported them, if we determined they did not have much potential we replaced them. In this case you and I simply disagree on whether he has potential or not.
What's your opinion of potential? Sure he has potential, but it's been five years sub stand performance based on talent alone. Many programs would be excited to just make the turny or get bounced in the first round, but that simply isn't Arizona good. In Miller's own words" I need to do a better job coaching" words are just words. What has he actually done to change his system? Almost nothing. Pack-line, hedging the screens way to far, poor utilization of time outs, poor utilization of talent, inability to coach against zone. Keeping up with the make-up of Basketball and on and on and on. I can give numerous examples of lack of growth. I supported Miller, but have a hard supporting a person unwilling to change.
QuoteWhat's your opinion of potential?
he's almost .750 at UofA above .700 in conference, in two seasons (13/14 14/15) he was 67-9 won the PAC title and made the elite 8 both years, in '11, 14, and 17 he was PAC COY, there are like 10 of his guys in the NBA
that's Arizona good, that's not his potential that is his accomplishments, and he can improve on that
I get it that you don't think he's adapted or improved or that he's even a decent coach, I simply disagree that replacing him (something that is not going to happen at least until his contract expires or more dirt is dug up) is the best path forward
I also get that some fans think that they are entitled to all kinds of stuff, and that anyone who 'settles' for anything less than a National is a wimp interested in participation trophies
I'm proud of the way that CSM leads my team, the way he represents my school, his intense passion, his deep experience, his ability to focus, and while I'd like to win every game and be 10 times returning world champions I know that the reality is that he's doing a very good job given the circumstances, with the potential to improve
time will tell, and I promise you that if Miller gets replaced I'll be rooting for the new guy, but until then I hope that he wins his Nattie here at Arizona
Supporting a coach is fine, but I support the team regardless of the inept ability of Miller. Look at Lute's record and look at the completion the cats played. What has Miller actually done the last five years? That's the question? Well the UofA has had more active investigations, two coaches fired for infractions. three other incidents of lack of institutional control. We can look at the NCAA record over the last five years. I'm sorry your blinded by your support of Miller, if and when the program turns around I'll change my opinion of Miller. I'm not going to hold my breath.
QuoteI'm sorry your blinded by your support of Miller
sorry mate, I'm not blind, no more than you or anyone else
after careful consideration I believe that CSM is our best hope going forward
if, after careful consideration you think he needs to be replaced, then so be it, but it doesn't mean you're blind or stupid or insane or any of that
I do think that some folks have an overly developed sense of entitlement, the first person who said the Arizona fans are spoiled was Lute, I just happen to agree with him
he won't be replaced until after his contract, so the issue is moot, and so until then let's get ready for the game tonight and the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will follow should we lose
Bear Down
Quote from: AzHoops24 on January 29, 2020, 08:33:39 AM.
I don't get the complaining about ooc scheduling its done years in advance and every year different teams are legit. We played the two top ranked teams in the country this year so quit ur damn bitching
The problem in years past was SOS. Not this year though. Basically we played 2 A-Teams and a bunch of C and D-teams. We need more Power 5 B-teams
Quote from: KansasCityCats on January 28, 2020, 09:08:32 AM
Hard to disagree with TJ74's comment.
Arizona was a consistent Final Four contender when guys like Archie, Book, Pasternak, Phelps and Romar were on staff.
Despite the recent struggles, I wouldn't be shocked if we somehow sneak into Atlanta. There's a lot of talent on the floor and there aren't a lot of schools that are playing at a high level. Nobody is a lock to go far in the tourney this season, which is advantageous for us.
"A lot of talent on the floor"?
Are you sure you are watching Mens BBall and not the women?
When is the last time Arizona had 3 lottery picks on their roster?
I can't recall the last time we had 3 first rounders playing on the same court.
Dare I say mighty mouse
https://twitter.com/PacificMensBB/status/1234916706889240577
always some reason out of millers control why he can't get his talent to perform. I love these topics because that is all you get.
#1 option is and has always been steve kerr (pipe dream i know)
#2 which is actually #1 since Kerr is an impossibility..Miles Simon
#3 Luke Walton
eff you reggie geary lovers, no recruits know or care who he is, and doing what he has done where he is at does not come close to meaning he is ready for Arizona.
I don't understand why fans get so hung up on past players as a legitimate coach.
If Damon or miles was any other ex NBA guy like say baron davis, what on his resume shows he is ready to head our program?
Miles is a career assistant (a good one) and Damon is doing well at pacific, but even with COY, he's still not going to the tournament. Would you really target either of those guys over someone like chris beard or Greg Marshall that have actually proven something as a college basketball head coach?
One out of left field. Jud Buchler. Has experience as Assistant in NBA, including time with Kerr and Walton. NBA champ and UA alum.
I pick UA alumna because everyone else would just use UA as a springboard. Miller didn't because his end product is shit and the other schools know that.
Quote from: 2012Cat on March 03, 2020, 09:00:36 PM
I don't understand why fans get so hung up on past players as a legitimate coach.
If Damon or miles was any other ex NBA guy like say baron davis, what on his resume shows he is ready to head our program?
Miles is a career assistant (a good one) and Damon is doing well at pacific, but even with COY, he's still not going to the tournament. Would you really target either of those guys over someone like chris beard or Greg Marshall that have actually proven something as a college basketball head coach?
Mighty Mouse took one of the worst D-1 teams and made them respectable. I don't think he's ready to take over at Arizona, but he's making progress as a coach.
Agreed about Miles. He has a ton of contacts & would be a great recruiter. I'm confident that we could land some nice PG's in the future but there are better options out there.
Gregg Marshall is the worst coach in dealing with the media. He was in LA for the NCAA tournament when they defeated #1 Gonzaga...and was there again as a top seed when UCLA AND USC were both looking for coaches. Neither even asked for an interview while he was in town because he is hated as a person, but beloved as a "basketball mind".
Chris Beard would be amazing. The guy can coach X's and O's and develops talent.
Miles Simon will never coach at Arizona again.
I dont think Miller is the problem. I think with all thats been going on around the program and all the turnover we've had lately with assistants, I believe Miller is excelling as he does everything from recruiting to coaching to all the micro things that assistants would take care of or help a lot. If we any great assistants, we would have been in a good place against UCLA when he go ejected, but our assistants fumbled it pretty bad.
You "alum" heads might as well talk about Bret Brieimeier who is a NBA champion as an assistant coach. Kerr, Walton, Miles, Damon etc all cannot run a full program at this level top to bottom.
Texas Tech got by on the back of Jarrett Culver last year primarily and they are not dominating anything now at 18-12. Recency bias has been the downfall of tons of programs.
Especially those that brought in coaches from random crapshoot runs and haven't done anything since. Cough Shaka Smart/Texas who is about to be fired for doing nothing after his 1 run at VCU.
Quote from: Zona Nation on March 04, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
Miles Simon will never coach at Arizona again.
Because???
I wonder if Bruce Pearl would leave Auburn to come here. Auburn was the laughing stock of the SEC and is now consistently Top 25 coming off a final four.
Quote from: Seansbiggestfan on March 04, 2020, 10:21:22 PM
Quote from: Zona Nation on March 04, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
Miles Simon will never coach at Arizona again.
Because???
He supposedly slept with the wrong person's wife. We'll just leave it at that
Quote from: ThrowItDownBigMan on March 04, 2020, 11:24:32 PM
I wonder if Bruce Pearl would leave Auburn to come here. Auburn was the laughing stock of the SEC and is now consistently Top 25 coming off a final four.
Pearl is an amazing personality and an even better coach. Unfortunately, nobody would trade Miller's NCAA issues for TWO of Pearl's investigations.
Quote from: KansasCityCats on March 05, 2020, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: ThrowItDownBigMan on March 04, 2020, 11:24:32 PM
I wonder if Bruce Pearl would leave Auburn to come here. Auburn was the laughing stock of the SEC and is now consistently Top 25 coming off a final four.
Pearl is an amazing personality and an even better coach. Unfortunately, nobody would trade Miller's NCAA issues for TWO of Pearl's investigations.
Yeah that is true. The man certainly knows how to coach though. If he could prove he has cleaned up his act with his track record then he would be the perfect coach for Arizona.
Quote from: KansasCityCats on March 04, 2020, 12:09:07 PM
Quote from: 2012Cat on March 03, 2020, 09:00:36 PM
I don't understand why fans get so hung up on past players as a legitimate coach.
If Damon or miles was any other ex NBA guy like say baron davis, what on his resume shows he is ready to head our program?
Miles is a career assistant (a good one) and Damon is doing well at pacific, but even with COY, he's still not going to the tournament. Would you really target either of those guys over someone like chris beard or Greg Marshall that have actually proven something as a college basketball head coach?
Gregg Marshall is the worst coach in dealing with the media. He was in LA for the NCAA tournament when they defeated #1 Gonzaga...and was there again as a top seed when UCLA AND USC were both looking for coaches. Neither even asked for an interview while he was in town because he is hated as a person, but beloved as a "basketball mind".
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30074157/wichita-state-investigating-coach-gregg-marshall-amid-misconduct-allegations
What I meant to say is that Gregg Marshall not only deals poorly with the media...he also lacks the personal skills to grow relationships with his players!
Freaking ugly situation.
Miller's is so charismatic and engaging with the media. What's your point? I'm not saying Marshal would be a good fit, but it's not like Miller is the best media personality.
Hmm- Never really thought about Bruce Pearl. That's interesting.
Jamion Christian/ George Washington HC might be worth a look after this season.
Miller is well-spoken and has plenty of healthy relationships with alumni, media, players and Tucson locals.
Kansas City's media outlets won't ever cover Wichita State basketball because they won't deal with Marshall...and he won't deal with them. The Shockers have an outstanding program and nobody seems to care because their coach isolates himself from the "sales job" that comes with being a head coach.
If the boosters, media and locals don't care about you, the program will never survive. Marshall's situation in Wichita is the exception because Koch pays his salary and they're fine with the current situation, as long as he continues to win.
Tucson would NEVER embrace a guy like Gregg Marshall.
I would keep an eye on Hoiberg's time at Nebraska.
What he did at a good program/school in Iowa was fantastic, and just don't think he is going to get the recruits in Lincoln.
idk just an idea.
Lincoln is an extremely tough place to recruit for basketball, but Ames was before he arrived as well.
Hoiberg has really close family ties to Nebraska, so I couldn't see him leaving, unless he was fired (or had another big NBA opportunity).