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Do you agree that Phelps should be fired? I know we don't know the specific details of what Phelps did, but he's been suspended and Arizona has initiated the firing process for him for a reason. Let us know what you think and cast your vote

Under normal circumstances I'd say no, but we have a microscope on our program, so the little white lies become Huge.

Per what I've read doesn't he have a bit of history?  Was he involved in the airfare deal?  I know it was kind of minor but pretty stupid stuff when you loan a player money, even if they pay you back without clearing it with the school or NCAA first.  Even I know the NCAA won't like that at all. 

I know that doesn't mean he's necessarily done anything else but my gut tells me they (read he and all the other assistant coaches from many teams all over the place) do these little shenanigans now and again and he got caught.  Maybe he's been caught a few times but it's been hush hush.  I'm just making crap up but I'm getting tired of the stupidity.  The airfare loan as I read and understand it just seems foolish.   

<edit>  And let me add that if he was part of some grade fixing or whatever academic shenanigans to get a player on our team then yes he needs to be fired.

Not knowing everything hampers my thoughts a bit but NO unless there is something more.

Stupid POLL...we dont know the facts.

I completely understand damage control but terminating someone without any proof of guilt shouldn't even be considered. Yes it sends a message of compliance but unless Miller is next and this is a calculated move, it also sends a message to prospective players and coaches that Arizona is weak and not supportive. Opposite of Bear Down in my opinion.

Should he actually be found guilty then it's the right move, but not until then.

It's hard to say if someone should lose their job...and when you don't know what they did, that makes it even harder.  If they're setting things up to fire him, and he did something that deserved that...then it must have been bad.  I can't say what I would do because I don't know what he did/is accused of doing. 

Quote from: AZip on February 13, 2019, 12:10:07 AMwe dont know the facts.

This.  Not sure if the details will be publicly disclosed.

The Pinder thing doesn't affect my view on Phelps.  I love the fact that he tried to help a player visit family...it shows his dedication and love for the kids on our roster.  The NCAA didn't punish Arizona because he had every intention of being paid-back.

Just hoping everybody does their due diligence and this situation is resolved quickly.

every incident is him helping people in some way or another..........how dare he. The ncaa is a garbage ass governing body, and has a massive book of rules all created so they can punish schools that are not their money makers.

I'm lost, haven't a clue to what is really going on. Maybe I'll never know. I would love to move on with this, whom ever is holding the reins.

AZ is:
14-10, with 7 games left we will be favored in 2 maybe 3 of them.
We are 5-6 in conference and realistically looking at  7-11 conference record. First losing conference record since 1983.
We are 1-4 against ranked OOC opponents over the past three years. Kansas has played 5 OOC ranked opponents THIS YEAR alone. 
2018 - We lost, as a 4 seed to 13 seed Buffalo BY 21 POINTS with the players from 4 top ten recruiting classes and the #1 over all NBA draft pick.
2017 - We lost, as 2 seed to 11 seed Xavier with players from 4 top ten recruiting classes with multiple future NBA players.   
2016 - We lost, as a 6 seed to 11 seed Wichita state with players from 4 top ten recruiting classes with multiple future NBA players.
We have a federally indicted and convicted former assistant coach.
We lost a coach who is currently under multiple investigations by the FBI (Pasternak) and eventually NCAA.
We have suspended, as part of the firing process, a coach for KNOWN violations that have been reported to and are being investigated by the NCAA.
We have players over the past three years who have admitted to sexual misconduct, use of PEDs, inappropriate plane tickets...
Our HC has been accused of paying recruits and has done nothing, other than make a highly qualified statement full of plausible deniability to refute it.

What has to happen to make fans think that MAYBE there is something just a little bit off with our BB program? 

Seriously, why on earth would we not FIRE EVERYONE?

So HECK YES - fire his sorry butt. 


Lawyer on the radio (linked in another thread) posted friday:

"They obviously have clear and convincing evidence...."

Either Heeke and Robbins are morons and setting the University up for a huge lawsuit OR they (and risk management) know exactly what happened, (and have paid millions to find out) and reported it to the NCAA and and suspend Phelps as part of the firing process.

Also...we're 14-10, in 7th place in the pac-12, we have almost zero chance of making the tournament, 

We are 1-4 against Ranked opponents OOC over there past 3 years.

I know Liquidated's posts are not well received around these parts but most of what is written there are cold hard facts.  Brutal.

I agree that the athletic department heads wouldn't fire someone unless they were 100% certain and also agree that they have done a 3rd party investigation costing a lot of money before making the decision.  I trust they have the necessary evidence.    Just because Phelps tried to do good doesn't mean it was legal. 

I only started closely following our program since last year but I have not enjoyed last year or this year save for the USC final in the tourney last year.  A big part of me believes this is directly related to our highly touted recruiting classes.  If you keep recruiting guys who bail after a year or two it's awfully hard to build any cohesion.  I think our tournament record is also reflective of these guys.  If they lose do they really care?  Their consolation prize is the multi million dollar contract in the NBA.  Why would they go all out and risk injury knowing they are bailing for the NBA and millions of dollars?   If I were them I wouldn't be bothered either.  This was never more evident than against Buffalo last year.  One team had a bunch of kids who were hungry and the other team had a team of soon to be 'NBA stars'.  Embarrassing.  Lose by 2 at the buzzer to a hungry team who played out of their minds, ok, I can live with that but blown out by 21 and never in the game?  Dumb.  Our stars could care less.  The sooner that game was over the sooner they were making money.

I'll go on record as not giving two craps about Ayton.  We would have been better served to find a 4 star and 3 star diamond in the rough and coached them for 4 years than having the best player 'ever' for one year.  We weren't even a power house in the PAC12 last year.  Many games came down to the wire and the PAC12 wasn't that good last year either.  Trier didn't play for long stretches and clearly quit after the PED debacle.  Mr. Savage was mostly mediocre until the USC final and his incredible monster slam!  That was cool!

Here's the thing.  Our coaches aren't getting these recruits by accident.  All the programs are doing some nefarious stuff for sure, but we've been targeted and are getting caught doing it.  When you chase all the best NBA talent you have to go 'above and beyond' and sometimes that doesn't jibe well with NCAA rules.  I have no insight into wtf is happening but its hard to watch this program continue to fall and read the news that yet another coach is going to be fired.  On top of that, based on star ratings (which apparently don't actually mean sh^&)  we have the kids to be at the top of our crappy conference.  I have no idea who it is but I think the right coach could get these kids to do better.  I believe they are playing way below their potential.  IMO that's on the coach and staff.  Maybe they are distracted, maybe they aren't good coaches, maybe their overpaid for their ability.  I don't know but I'm not impressed with last year or this year.  If we were failing against better quality teams that would be one thing but we are consistently being blown out by unranked opponents.  We have the recruits to be better than that....its really hard to watch. 

These new kids we have coming next year....are they here for a year or two or do they stay?  If they are so good that this is just a stop off before the NBA in a year then nothing will magically change next year. 

This is the path our coach and staff have chosen.  Chase the 5 star one year one and done's.  Or chase the guys that after one year go 'test the waters' and are told what they need to improve so they stay an extra year to work on that one aspect of their game, I'm looking at you Mr. Savage Life.   I like the kids we have now.  They were all highly rated in high school.  Aren't they all 4 stars?  I think they are better than what we are witnessing.  I wish we would see some changes and better coaching to get more out of them.  What are the player ratings for WSU?  Are our players rated worse than WSU's players?  Not on Liquidated list of 'accomplishments' is the fact that WSU just waltzed into McKale and beat us wire to wire by double digits.  You can't tell me that's because of injury or ability of our players.  That's 100% coaching.  Something is wrong and someone needs to answer for it.  I think our highly paid coach is one of those people. 

Our Non-Con Strength of Schedule under Miller:
2018-19: 25
2017-18: 32
2016-17: 26
2015-16: 44
2014-15: 7
2013-14: 5
2012-13: 11
2011-12: 49
2010-11: 24
2009-10: 60 (not scheduled by Miller's staff)

Although we don't have annual home-and-home matchups with blue-bloods...Reynolds has done an amazing job of providing a Top-50 NCSOS in EVERY season, since taking over the job.

Buffalo loss was embarrassing...but it's obvious that they have a good team.  They're currently 21-3...and last year's 27-win team should not have been a 14-seed.

The loss to Xavier was in the Sweet 16.  I'm not ashamed of losing to a team that only lost two regular season games to schools outside the Top-3.

Similar to Buffalo, Wichita was under-seeded.  They were preseason #10 and were still ranked as late as February.  That team has 3 players in the NBA.

No player has admitted sexual misconduct, nobody purposely took PED's and the NCAA didn't even penalize Arizona for "plane tickets".

Miller cannot comment on the alleged payment of players.  He immediately addressed the media & said that ESPN's article was BS.  Thereafter, it was (and still is) in the hands of the attorneys.  Unfortunately, that battle won't occur until the NCAA publicly comes after Arizona.

Arizona went 8-10 in 2007-08 after Lute left the hot mess for O'Neill.  Hard to find the records because our prior staff put the program under sanctions & the (lack of) wins were vacated from the record-books.  This season is not over.  If we fall below .500 in Pac-12 play...it won't be the first time since '83.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Phelps.  He was a previous D-1 Head Coach with solid experience and recruiting skills.  The players adore him & if he did something wrong...the University and its fans obviously have no remorse in firing him.  I'd personally prefer to bring in a young mind that can teach our staff how to properly attack a zone.

Quote from: KansasCityCats on February 13, 2019, 04:19:45 PM
Our Non-Con Strength of Schedule under Miller:
2018-19: 25
2017-18: 32
2016-17: 26
2015-16: 44
2014-15: 7
2013-14: 5
2012-13: 11
2011-12: 49
2010-11: 24
2009-10: 60 (not scheduled by Miller's staff)

Although we don't have annual home-and-home matchups with blue-bloods...Reynolds has done an amazing job of providing a Top-50 NCSOS in EVERY season, since taking over the job.

Buffalo loss was embarrassing...but it's obvious that they have a good team.  They're currently 21-3...and last year's 27-win team should not have been a 14-seed.

The loss to Xavier was in the Sweet 16.  I'm not ashamed of losing to a team that only lost two regular season games to schools outside the Top-3.

Similar to Buffalo, Wichita was under-seeded.  They were preseason #10 and were still ranked as late as February.  That team has 3 players in the NBA.

No player has admitted sexual misconduct, nobody purposely took PED's and the NCAA didn't even penalize Arizona for "plane tickets".

Miller cannot comment on the alleged payment of players.  He immediately addressed the media & said that ESPN's article was BS.  Thereafter, it was (and still is) in the hands of the attorneys.  Unfortunately, that battle won't occur until the NCAA publicly comes after Arizona.

Arizona went 8-10 in 2007-08 after Lute left the hot mess for O'Neill.  Hard to find the records because our prior staff put the program under sanctions & the (lack of) wins were vacated from the record-books.  This season is not over.  If we fall below .500 in Pac-12 play...it won't be the first time since '83.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Phelps.  He was a previous D-1 Head Coach with solid experience and recruiting skills.  The players adore him & if he did something wrong...the University and its fans obviously have no remorse in firing him.  I'd personally prefer to bring in a young mind that can teach our staff how to properly attack a zone.

What?

Our OOC schedule is garbage. No matter what it is ranked, we used play elite teams every year and often multiple elite teams in multiple tournaments, etc. This year, Maui was huge...but of course we were totally outclassed. AZ does not belong in the same gym with those schools anymore.

What conference did Buffalo rack up 27 wins in?  And on what planet would a tiny, minor school, like Buffalo EVER beat AZ? Their RPI was like 180.. They are not even a mid-major. They beat us by 21. 

I think you have your years off...

That Xavier team was 21-13, 9-9 in their conference. They lost 7 of their last 10 games and only played 1 ranked opponent in that stretch. Gonzaga beat them 83-59 in the Elite 8 game after us. They were NOT a special team. We had 5 future NBA players on that team. 7 if you count PJC and Comanche now in the G league. Chris Mack was Miller's assistant...Miller should have been prepared for him.  Xavier is a legit mid-major, but this was not a vintage Xavier team.

Wichita State's Final Four team was 2013, we played them in 2016. They were 23-8 on the year. They lost to every power 5 team they played, except, ironically, Utah, the only ranked team they played that entire year and Utah was 25 at the time, BARELY ranked. They had only 2 NBA players, Shamet and VanVleet. The lost 4 of their first 6 games. This was not a strong Wichita team and not under seeded. They play Northern Iowa, Drake, Bradly, Indiana State, Evansvile, Southern Illinois - all twice in the same season. And again, on what planet does an 11 seed Wichita beat AZ? Yes, upsets happen. We lost to Wisconsin when we should have beaten them. Lute lost to teams that should not have beaten him but NOT EVERY DAMN TIME. Whichta State is BARELY a mid major.

Elliott Pitts admitted to sexual misconduct - that was part of his deal to finish out the semester and Miller tried to keep him on the team after that deal was made until Mason released his letter to the media and made a stink a few weeks later. Elliot agreed not to fight his charges in January yet remained with the team until mid February, sending an already infuriated Harvey Mason over the edge.

You're telling me that Trier took PED's twice and did not intend to? That story was bogus from day 1. Dow you want to buy I bridge I own in Havasu City, AZ?  "My Dad handed me a protein shake"...was that the dad that he was estranged from growing up? Because that was a big part of his story - him and his mom moving all over the US to get him BB experience. Or maybe that story was bogus, too?

Miller did not say the ESPN story was BS... he said he never paid Ayton. Then he said he has never 'directly paid a player' - as Mark Titus points out, that leaves room for a 'recruit' to be different than 'player'. And there appear to be a lot of indirect payments happening all over the place. His words were transparently carefully chosen to be plausibly deniable. He also went into hiding for 48 hours after the story broke and left Oregon - clearly the actions of an innocent guy who had nothing to fear.

You are correct, AZ did go 8-10 - but we still went to the tournament. Lute was a mess...O'Neill is always a mess...but that team was not a hot mess. They weren't great but they were a hell of a lot better than Millers B.S. the past 5 years. I'd rather have O'Neill coaching this team than Miller and I dislike O'Neill as a person. That is the ONLY time AZ has not finished .500 or above (and .500 only happened 1 time also) since 1983-1984.

What it has to do with Phelps is that they should all be fired. Phelps, Book, Pasternak, PED's, Sexual Misconduct, horrid tournament performance, academic fraud, plane tickets....these are all symptoms, not the disease. The disease is Sean Miller and, in fairness, he may have caught it from Greg Byrne, but at some point you have to stop treating the symptoms (have an excuse for each and every loss and dishonest action) and treat the disease.

Any one thing, fist round losses...OR watching programs like ASU and Oregon surpass us OR 1 assistant indicted by the FBI...and those things can be dismissed as isolated incidents. But when you start adding up all those '1 little things' - it is overwhelming.

I won't argue the tournament losses because they happen to everybody except one program on an annual basis.  Mid-majors have owned the blue-bloods over the past couple decades because the NBA is too stubborn to get rid of the one-and-done issue.

Pitts confirmed that he had sexual relations with Mia...and that both were under the influence.  I don't remember him admitting to an assault, but it was an ugly mess that obviously didn't end with a conclusive resolution.

Trier supposedly took the PED's once.  A minuscule amount of the drug regenerated in his system & he was suspended (again).  In the end, the NCAA allowed him to play...despite still having the drug in his system.  They obviously realized that it was a foolish suspension & that he wasn't "doping".

"I have never knowingly violated NCAA rules while serving as head coach of this great program," Miller said. "I have never paid a recruit or prospect or their family or representative to come to Arizona. I never have and I never will. I have never arranged or directed payment or any improper benefits to a recruit or a prospect or their family or representative, and I never will."

Miller's exact words are above.  He made a strong statement immediately after the accusations.  Since then...everything has been handled internally.  Articles likely these have already proven that Schlabach is an idiot: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2762200-si-refutes-espn-report-on-sean-miller-deandre-ayton-arizona-fbi-investigation

O'Neill over Miller?  KO failed everywhere except Marquette.  Northwestern, Tennessee & USC were laughable & he should have stayed as an assistant for life.  Nobody even cares for him as a commentator.

I understand your disgust for our postseason record.  I'd love to see the Cats in the Final Four, but I'm not ashamed of FIVE Sweet 16 appearances and THREE Elite-Eights over a 9 year period (not to mention the FIVE Pac-12 Championships and THREE Pac-12 Tournament Wins). 

Next year will be a better indicator of whether Miller will have an opportunity to make/win a Final Four at Arizona. 

In the end, after all the hand ringing,what it all boils down to is shot making, guard play, and officiating over a six game span. Make the shots at crunch time (Which presumes you are are in a position to win), take care of the ball, and avoid getting hosed, more than your opponent--do that six times, and all ills are magically healed--for a year or two, possibly three.

Winners kibitz, losers say, "Deal the cards." We are one final-four away from kibitzing. Luck is fickle and any seasoned poker player will tell you, fleeting. Sometimes all you need is for the cards to run in your favor--six times to be exact.

Quote from: KansasCityCats on February 14, 2019, 08:06:05 AM
I won't argue the tournament losses because they happen to everybody except one program on an annual basis.  Mid-majors have owned the blue-bloods over the past couple decades because the NBA is too stubborn to get rid of the one-and-done issue.

Pitts confirmed that he had sexual relations with Mia...and that both were under the influence.  I don't remember him admitting to an assault, but it was an ugly mess that obviously didn't end with a conclusive resolution.

Trier supposedly took the PED's once.  A minuscule amount of the drug regenerated in his system & he was suspended (again).  In the end, the NCAA allowed him to play...despite still having the drug in his system.  They obviously realized that it was a foolish suspension & that he wasn't "doping".

"I have never knowingly violated NCAA rules while serving as head coach of this great program," Miller said. "I have never paid a recruit or prospect or their family or representative to come to Arizona. I never have and I never will. I have never arranged or directed payment or any improper benefits to a recruit or a prospect or their family or representative, and I never will."

Miller's exact words are above.  He made a strong statement immediately after the accusations.  Since then...everything has been handled internally.  Articles likely these have already proven that Schlabach is an idiot: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2762200-si-refutes-espn-report-on-sean-miller-deandre-ayton-arizona-fbi-investigation

O'Neill over Miller?  KO failed everywhere except Marquette.  Northwestern, Tennessee & USC were laughable & he should have stayed as an assistant for life.  Nobody even cares for him as a commentator.

I understand your disgust for our postseason record.  I'd love to see the Cats in the Final Four, but I'm not ashamed of FIVE Sweet 16 appearances and THREE Elite-Eights over a 9 year period (not to mention the FIVE Pac-12 Championships and THREE Pac-12 Tournament Wins). 

Next year will be a better indicator of whether Miller will have an opportunity to make/win a Final Four at Arizona.

The fact you wont even argue the tournament records is exactly my point. Yes, Mid-Majors and some lessor teams like Loayola Chicago and Buffalo have 'owned' blue-bloods over the past 30 years OCCAISIONALLY scoring a big tourney upset. But look at the CHAMPIONSHIPS that Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC, AZ, Indiana, Villanova, UConn, Michigan...et all have won in 30 years. In fact if you look at the runner-ups, they are virtually all blue bloods too. There is a tiny smattering, literally about 5 teams in 30 years (Seton Hall, Butler) that broke through. Point is that Duke does loose in the first round. So does Kentucky and Kansas....but they come back within a year or two and get to the final four and they win championship every five-7 years...

TEN years of Miller at AZ and no final four. And every year..."oh wait till _____________________ (pick any name: Gordon, Stanimal, Trier, Zeus, Simmons, Ayton, Williams...) gets here - then Miller will finally have HIS type of payers, and enough depth, and show us what he can REALLY do. Yep...I saw that movie and I know how it ends. 

One point on O'Neill...I happen to know him (or 'knew' might be the proper tense), personally. I do not like him, never did. I do not know anyone who does, except for a small cadre of former AZ players who played the he was an assistant. To this day some of them still like him. His drunken scuffle/attack on Paul Weitman in Los Angeles was 100% on him - a friend of mine was in the bar with them.
But, he is one heck of a coach. O'Neill has never taken over a wining program, except at AZ and he ALWAYS wins. Look at the team and the huge messes he inherited at - actual hot messes at Marquette 13-15 the year before he took over and he turned them around and into a tournament team. He was .581 over all at Marquette and took them to their first sweet 16 in 20 years...Marquette was national champion (77) and a perennial sweet 16 team under Al McGuire in the early 70's. Tennessee was 5-22 the year before he was hired. He was only there there years and it was huge project but he ended up producing several NBA players and Jerry Green won big with O'Neill's players the year after he left- wining and SEC championship. Northwestern was 7-22 the year before he arrived to replace Ricky Byrdsong. Northwestern has zero BB tradition and is a doormat. O'Neill improved on that a bit, but not much. He did post their first wining season (15-14) in 15 years. He was the first coach to win 6 games in BIG10 play in 15 years. His replacement, Bill Carmody, went 9 seasons more before having a winning season.

You know the AZ story. 19-15 was pretty good posting for that team - Miller probably goes 8-26 with that team. Budinger, Bayless, Jordan Hill...that team was more talented that we were last year or this year. and he made the tournament and ran into one of the biggest under seeded teams ever, in West Virginia, a 7 seed that subsequently upset #2 seed Duke and #3 seed Xavier in our bracket.

USC was on major probation when he took over for Tim Floyd, they took some of the heat off the Football program and they were almost unanimously picked to finish last in the PAC10. He finished 5th. Not one player on the roster he inherited who were mostly underclassmen were ever NBA players. Not one. He was there 4 years, with severe NCAA penalties being served and he was 3-5 against Miller. With virtually no talent. 

I don't like Kevin O'Neill and OMG as a commentator he was worse than Walton, but I do respect him. He took Tennessee- which is a basketball wasteland and Northwestern Jobs and a steaming pile of NCAA crap at USC - there were vey few coaches who would have taken any of those jobs. Its kind of his specialty.

AZ is in the same position now - we are a has been blue chip with a distant memory of a great coach like Marquette was, We have massive NCAA sanctions and total turmoil going on with our coaches and likely scholarship reductions and we suck in conference about as bad as Tennessee generally used to. O'Neill would be great fit for the CIRCUMSTANCES. Of course he'd be Lynched as he drove into Tucson and rightfully so, help a world class a**hole.   

Good O'Neill argument.  I still don't think he would ever compare to Miller's success but I respect his basketball knowledge and resume.

I'll take the bait on the mid-major winners:  George Mason, Loyola, Butler, VCU, Cornell, Bradley, Dayton, FGCU, Cleveland St., Wichita St., Davidson, Ohio, LaSalle and (I'd even throw in) Gonzaga have all reached the Sweet 16 in recent tournaments.

That's a ridiculous amount of cinderellas that had experienced rosters...and took down the KU/UK's of college basketball.  Even Lehigh/Mercer over Dook and UMBC/Norfolk's wins proved that low/mid-majors are built to succeed in the postseason.  The don't win National Championships, but it makes me feel better about losing to a talented Buffalo team because Arizona was definitely not the only major program to be upset in the last decade.

2019-2020 is one of the seasons that actually makes a strong argument for "next year".  Miller has never recruited a talented PG like Mannion that can make the other players around him better.  Arizona will be 13-deep and won't have to worry about a drop-off if Brandon Williams or Chase Jeter are out for a period of time.  It will be painful to wait 13 months to determine whether the Cats can make a legit postseason run...but I'm optimistic that it will be worth the wait.

See you in Atlanta? :)