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I went with Lloyd because I prefer his run and gun style like the Godfather.

Tommy.

I don't want to punch a wall every time an opponent plays a zone defense against us. Offense is fun.

Just a reminder asu scored 100 on us this year.

As a Leader - Tommy
As a person - Tommy
In game antics - Tommy x 100

Recruiting is tough to compare. It's a different game today. Money talks right now and jury is still out.

Remember when Miller's guys seemed to go into a shell as the season progressed. And by comparison, Tommy's players continue to build confidence?

Overall, I feel like we are lucky to have Tommy.

t. lloyd.

No hate for Head Coach Sean Sean Miller from me but I'll take my t. lloyd 10/10.

This shouldn't even be close. CTL all day every day.

I prefer lloyds style of play and it's not even close. It's still early in the Tommy era, but the recruiting seems about on par in a quickly changing environment. His success so far speaks loudly, even though this years team has been mind numbingly frustrating at times.  We'll know a lot more in 3-4 years.  Let's not forget that there are at least a few history rich programs that would have traded for our last 4 years.

It is abundantly clear that Recency Bias has taken over this thread.

The correct answer is Sean Miller and it will continue to be so until Tommy can break through the Sweet 16.

Quote from: arxpert on March 28, 2025, 11:51:24 PMIt is abundantly clear that Recency Bias has taken over this thread.

The correct answer is Sean Miller and it will continue to be so until Tommy can break through the Sweet 16.

I just want to make sure I understand your logic clearly...are you saying because the farthest that Sean Miller has taken a school as a head coach in 20 seasons is to the ELite 8....and the farthest Tommy Lloyd has taken a school in 4 seasons as head coach is the Sweet 16...this should be the only logic and statistic taken into consideration when being presented with the question, "If you could replace Tommy Lloyd with Sean Miller, you would?"

And furthermore, by using this same logic...are you saying you would rather have any coach that has taken a school to the Elite 8, no matter how many years they were a head coach...over Tommy Lloyd. Really? Is that what you are saying? Because that is what it sounds like you are saying...

It would be a recency bias if Arizona was still alive and playing for a Final Four but the Cats lost and it's still an overwhelming majority of fans that prefer Lloyd.

Sean Miller was really good at things that Lloyd can't do, and vice versa.

I personally think the biggest fact that wins fan support is the pace of play. Every preseason, Miller's presser included "we will play uptempo this year" and it never occurred until Lloyd stepped in.

I'd take Miller's pack-line all day.

Quote from: Doubledown4.0 on March 29, 2025, 01:06:41 AM

Quote from: arxpert on March 28, 2025, 11:51:24 PMIt is abundantly clear that Recency Bias has taken over this thread.

The correct answer is Sean Miller and it will continue to be so until Tommy can break through the Sweet 16.

I just want to make sure I understand your logic clearly...are you saying because the farthest that Sean Miller has taken a school as a head coach in 20 seasons is to the ELite 8....and the farthest Tommy Lloyd has taken a school in 4 seasons as head coach is the Sweet 16...this should be the only logic and statistic taken into consideration when being presented with the question, "If you could replace Tommy Lloyd with Sean Miller, you would?"

And furthermore, by using this same logic...are you saying you would rather have any coach that has taken a school to the Elite 8, no matter how many years they were a head coach...over Tommy Lloyd. Really? Is that what you are saying? Because that is what it sounds like you are saying...

I am saying if you gave Miller the free pass Lute got for all the years Lute did major underhanded things in Tucson and even got rung up by the NCAA for some of it that Miller would reach a Final 4.

Miller is / was a better Coach in all ways that Tommy has been. Tommy started with Miller's players. Miller became the best International Recruiter "overnight" due to the FBI scandal. Tommy hasn't been able to bring in any of the Top Talents like Miller did.

With NIL involved now and the UofA Brand, had we went the Bill Self Route, I think Miller may have actually gotten to his Final Four.

It has nothing to do with 20 seasons as a HC overall. It has to do with being a HC at Arizona Specifically. The Brand means more than Xavier's yet he got Xavier to the Elite 8 and to the Second Weekend before as well too.

Tommy feasted off of Miller's eye for Talent. His style is fun, but he is still a Bambi. A young pup. He needs another 8 years or so before he can start being judged in the way I judge Miller, yet he will have skipped the line and not started at "Xavier" to bring them to prominence in any way shape or form. He will always have the asterisk of a head start* attached to his legacy beginning his HEAD Coaching Career at Arizona. A Top Tier 5 Star Program.

You may think I am rooting against his success, but I am not. I am merely stating that I am not a prisoner of the moment and I believe that Miller would have been performing as well or better had the ghouls never gotten rid of him. Bill Self may have suffered this season, but his consistency is key for the Jayhawks.

Give Tommy 8 more years. Let's see where he ends up. He is not the 2nd greatest coach to ever step foot in Tucson for basketball yet. Not by a long shot.

End of Story.

Quote from: KansasCityCats on March 29, 2025, 05:26:34 AMIt would be a recency bias if Arizona was still alive and playing for a Final Four but the Cats lost and it's still an overwhelming majority of fans that prefer Lloyd.

Sean Miller was really good at things that Lloyd can't do, and vice versa.

I personally think the biggest fact that wins fan support is the pace of play. Every preseason, Miller's presser included "we will play uptempo this year" and it never occurred until Lloyd stepped in.

I'd take Miller's pack-line all day.

Pace of Play is only a product of Chef Curry. If the Curry Era never took over the game, then things would still be in the Jordan Era aka the Derivatives like Kobe, Duncan, Shaq.. playing for 2's and Mid Range.

The Chef Curry style of play is said to be BORING most of the time. Run and Gun. Chuck 3s. Pace 3ball and Analytics. Curry + Steve Kerr...

Now the fun you and some others are seeing is still a product of not having a FBI scandal over our heads anymore and being on the other side of that nonsense.

The Pace we play with is actually coming up short consistently because Tommy isn't coaching up the 3 Ball nor bringing in guys that can shoot the ball. Like i've been saying. 45-50 shots per game to get 80-100ppg as a product of trying to get 2pts per possession or shoot 2 Shots to Earn 2 Points (Racking up tons of FT's) is Tommy's style and it has been highly telegraphed. Sometimes to a detriment. We just witnessed Alabama (Nate Oats, the architect of your favorite team ever.. Buffalo), that chucks 3's until blue in the face and out of all the times they did it, they broke the NCAA record 1 time and then just flamed out not having enough of an inside presence.

Point being, you can't try to ryn Pace and Analytics with 2's in the 3ball era and expect to win 6 in a row in the chaotic "Madness". We need to see Tommy evolve and teach the team how to play more than Man to Man defense with a little bit of a Press only when down "19" with 13min to go in the 2nd.

That is called breaking the emergency glass and hitting the ejection button.

So just realize that Tommy is still very much a rookie at this and just because he started hot doesn't mean he will automatically sustain it. Sometimes classes move on. NIL is a tough thing to navigate in and of itself, but Miller was a MONSTER at that part of the "business". So again.. lets see how long Tommy lasts first and we can compare his first 10 years at UofA with Miller's when the time comes.

I personally wont say that 3 Sweet 16's, 1 final four (with immediate loss), in 10 years is better than 3 Elite 8s (1st with no team that he just snaked from USC and got to play hard for him right away within a couple seasons), then some more Sweet 16s before scandals took over...

Tommy, with his head start, and resources will need to show me more. So far he is losing more recruits than Miller did at a higher pace and those had very little to do with NIL more than maybe he brought in some guys that weren't as good as he thought.

Let's also wait to see how this offseason goes too. Last year we had a lot of players and tons changed.

Give it time is all I ask. I am being fair. I ask everyone else be fair.

It is recency bias for now.

Despite having an AWFUL 3 point shooting team, Arizona is 15th in scoring this season (and tops in the Big-12). We're 18th in offensive efficiency, which proves that we're not trying to be Curry-esque.

Even during Arizona's best seasons under Miller, the. Are we're lucky to be top-20 in scoring.

If Miller brought in the best talent, then he shouldn't have an excuse for not making a single Final Four over a 10 year period. Consistent top-5 recruiting classes, ending in disappointment.

Quote from: KansasCityCats on March 30, 2025, 06:44:17 AMDespite having an AWFUL 3 point shooting team, Arizona is 15th in scoring this season (and tops in the Big-12). We're 18th in offensive efficiency, which proves that we're not trying to be Curry-esque.

Even during Arizona's best seasons under Miller, the. Are we're lucky to be top-20 in scoring.

If Miller brought in the best talent, then he shouldn't have an excuse for not making a single Final Four over a 10 year period. Consistent top-5 recruiting classes, ending in disappointment.

You read it wrong. I am saying that Tommy is trying to make the 3Ball + Pace style work with 2's.

If he were doing it with trying 3's, then we probably would have won a Natty by now. You do realize Koloko was one of the best 3pt shooters at his Combine right? If Tommy ever would let a Big take a 3.. or volume of 3's then we would see more success. He tried with Henri at the way end of the year. Henri hit some. He missed some. However, he barely let Carter play. 10 Shots had to be the most he ever got and it wasn't the best performance, but he did hit some 3's. If he were most accustomed to taking shots, then it may have went differently.

Besides Love, we really didn't have a 3pt shooter. ADO converted his game to be a spot shooter. He was more of a drive to the rack guy before Arizona clearly. Townsend even hit a 3 vs Duke.

I don't like Tommy's strategies sometimes. ADO hits 2 3's, Townsend hits a 3... then they start getting worked by Duke's role players so Tommy yanks them.. then we go with Henri and Carter to guard Flagg. Clearly Carter is not as good as Flagg. If he were, then he would have been "all but declared" from the beginning.

So if what universe was that ever going to work? Flagg got loose vs the "Line Change" more than anything.

Miller had some teams with high tier Offense and Defenses. There is no prerequisite that says you need to be #1 to win it all.

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2025-03-30

There is a Defensive efficiency link too.

You can sift through. Miller had some years in the Top 15. Good Enough. Running into a team that played better is not a bad thing. Not playing up to your potential is. Miller had plenty of sustained success. 2 iterations. A core of Momo Derrick and Solomon leading to a #2 overall pick and then TJ/Zews/Ashley/RHJ/ Gordon+Stanley as two 1 and dones. Those teams "got it done" enough for my taste.

Even you aren't foolish enough to say we wouldn't have went the distance if BASHley doesn't injure his foot at Cal. Luck plays a factor.

You can champion Tommy if you want, but he has not lived up to the hype yet. He has squandered a 1 and 2 2's, plus now a 4.

However, I did say I will give him 10 seasons and evaluate. If Tommy makes it 10 years. Anything other than that is someone else besides me being Unfair in the debate.

None of this is a low blow to Tommy. He has a different approach, but different is not necessarily better and Fun isn't equal to 3 Elite 8's "barely" lost. Not Blow Outs. You know that a missed shot at the buzzer or a miss then some close-out FT's is Worthy enough to say that we did the best we could.. and 2 of the 3 we vs Wisconsin. 1 and 2 seed back to back years. Just because we lost doesn't mean we weren't worthy of the moment.

Getting slapped around by Houston as a 5 seed when we were a 1 or slapped around by Clemson was "not worthy".

A close on box score loss to Princeton doesn't indicate that game quality either. We weren't worthy enough to win that one either.

I don't have to change your mind. You don't have to change mine. The facts do the talking when discussing the success of Miller and Tommy.

Even the talk of all 1 seeds again in the Final 4... 2008... Miller's Xavier as a 3 seed makes the Elite 8. Comes up short.

Now Miller at Texas... Unlimited Resources... I don't think we need to be in a RACE with Miller, but I won't be shocked if he gets his team together and finds some success quickly.

I completely respect the POV and I'll always respect miller for his different approach. Yes, I'm confident that Ashley's injury killed an eventual title.

Recruiting one and dones kills your ability to build a program, despite bringing immediate success.

I'm still stubborn and think that losing close (meaningful) games are on the Coach because game plans and drawing up final plays are coaching, moreso than the players making their shots throughout the course of 40 minutes.

We'll see where Lloyd takes the team over the next 5-6 years. It would be nice to get over the hump and finally make the first final four in 25+ years. Next year's roster is shaping up to have the potential, depending on the circus of NCAA transfers.