I have decided with 100% certainty that Caleb Love is the absolute Worst player in all of College Basketball this season.
There are a multitude of qualitative and quantitative factors that have led me to this conclusion. There is no need to list them all out. We all know the reasons why. It really isn't a mechanism of "he is what he is" and in fact he is playing even just a bit better than his "averages".
I appreciate his heroic moment.
We, as a fanbase have been on the other end of some of those.
However, let's just be honest.
We wouldn't have needed it if he were even a mediocre to low level 4th option, but the fact he could take and make that shot in that moment is definitely something admirable.
Caleb is still seriously the worst player in all of College Basketball. This includes his Minutes, Usage Rate, Shot Selection, Decisiveness and Indecisiveness... and more. All of it combined, then some.
The game tonight was really played to Iowa State's favor. It was a slug fest. I don't think Iowa State took advantage enough of it. We witnessed a team that could have clotheslined us and not gotten fouled.
The ref crew is one of the top in the whole landscape of College Basketball and they honored this matchup by largely staying out of it.
I think this really helped a Tough Guy like Awaka with his 17-12 game.
Ironically, no one had more than 3 fouls except Carter with 4. I noticed 2 "cheapies" on him (compared to the way the game was called) and 1 bad luck / out of position on one of those scramble type plays.
Carter went 5-7 from the field. Nailed 4 Humungous 3's.
4-5 from 3 Point Land and tenacious defense.
I questioned Tommy a lot as he would play Townsend on offense for defense subs often when Iowa State had that really tall and lanky kid (Dishon Jackson???). He was having his way with us. We don't really have much of an answer for a Big like that. Henri and Carter play mean and I like it. They do their best.
I didn't like Tommy's strategy at all at the end of Regulation. Purposely missing the FT when Iowa St was missing a ton of FTs all night... I would have asked Henri to try to make the shot, be down 1. Foul them, hope they miss 1 and then we wouldn't have been able to be fouled only down 2 points.
"All's well that end's well" as the saying goes, but Tommy may look back at that someday. Not today. He will enjoy this win as he should. Deserved - possibly earned. However as a teachable moment, Tommy can definitely learn from that scenario.
This game was in our control for 97% of the game and I say that with confidence even knowing it was close. We had some parts where we were in a range where we could have gone up 7-10pts, but we let ISU just hang around. That is our thing. We let everyone hang around.
I don't believe that ISU was going to ever just go away... like they did in OT. That was sort of the anomaly, but I will say that Tommy was able to keep the team focused and actually take inventory of how the game was being called. So I am complimenting Tommy here. He didn't try to do anything that was going to take us out of the game blatantly. He let our guys stand on business for themselves and their pride.
Respek for Tommy in that regard.
I don't understand why Caleb Love will continue to "EARM" (Garner) 35+ Minutes per game.
I would really appreciate the people who use the word "EARN" to help explain it to me. I would even appreciate my haters to come in here to my post and use some sports debate talking points whether it is the Analytics or the Intangibles to come in here and help explain to me why Caleb Love is "EARNING", "DESERVING", and "GARNERING" the minutes he is playing.
This was a great win for us. It meant the world for us actually. It really was just a Bug on the Windshield to ISU... They get Kansas State next in Ames, but I hope they lose that one. That could actually be a Trap Game for them if KSU comes correct before they randomly have to go play AT Kansas (not sure how the scheduling makes sense for our Big12 Super Conference really this year).
Iowa State most certainly did NOT underestimate us and we are not a "Trap Game".
I hope we continue to be Unranked. In my opinion, we haven't "EARNED" being ranked yet. However, it is inevitable seemingly.
I appreciated living in the moment tonight.
OWNWARD AND UP
BEARDOWN.
I don't understand why Loge gets significant minutes either. But the announcers even praised the way that Lloyd rightfully subbed out Bryant for a brief moment on defense, which allowed Trey to make a stop and return to the bench, in lieu of Bryant.
Quote from: KansasCityCats on January 28, 2025, 12:30:32 AMBut the announcers even praised the way that Lloyd rightfully subbed out Bryant for a brief moment on defense, which allowed Trey to make a stop and return to the bench, in lieu of Bryant.
I actually was questioning why that Sub happened, but I believe it only occurred due to the 4 fouls on Carter. Had there not been those fouls, I believe Tommy would have just went forward with Carter. I could be wrong, but the announcers maybe were trying to say that without saying it because of course it was Home Court and those Refs are standing right near them. So they probably didn't want to plant the seeds.
I know Carter had a tough go vs that really tall and athletic Iowa State player, but Townsend was just getting destroyed. 2 dribble backdown, spin and easy layup. No resistance at all really.
I also was wondering if Tommy was willing to go to EMAN Stephen in that one situation, but it was high leverage and I get why he would be too scared overall. Maybe if he played him for 2 minutes earlier in the game he could have measured how it would play out a bit better.
Either way, Iowa State got unlucky to the half courter. They did everything they were supposed to do down the stretch especially on the road. We were finally due some luck. Just because we got it to OT didn't mean Iowa State had to fully implode either. I think that was where we shined the most. Capitalizing on their wallowing. Thankfully we hit a couple huge 3's and really put their mental game "on tilt" enough to just outscore them 15-4 was it? Just enough to really just take their head out of the game.
It was a tremendous win and I give Tommy a ton of credit for knowing what to do when that all star ref crew was letting the kids play.
At so many points it just felt like Caleb couldn't do anything right. Including that breakaway where his foot went on the line when we had the numbers and he could have made a pass.
Again, this season is not about style points. This is about survival and I will take it however it comes.
Howard's Cameron Shockley-Okeke has made the same # of 3pt shots as Caleb Love this season (48) on 50 less attempts.
Lol?
True. Consistent shooting his not his thing. Although he caused Curtis Jones to play his worst game of the season: 8 points on 1/11 shooting (0/8 from long), 4 fouls and 3 TO's).
Prior to last night, Jones' worst Big-12 game was the Baylor matchup, where he scored 14 on 6/13 from the field.
I've certainly been critical of Caleb, but the idea of him being the worst player in college basketball is laughable. In fact, I think he does most things extremely well. He should abdolutely not, however, be a high volume 3 point shooter. Three to five a game MIGHT be ok, but I still think it's too many. He may be the most over rated shooter in college basketball, or I might go for least valuable starter or most damaging player. If he'd stop shooting 3's he'd be incredibly valuable. Yes, I agree that the hero moment took him from the reason we lost to the reason we won, but if he hadn't taken (and missed) all those 3's we'd have possibly (likely?) been well ahead and it would not have been necessary.
Caleb in a word, Dynamic. For better or worse.
10/10 still giving him the ball in full court play when down 3 with 2 left.
Quote from: arxpert on January 27, 2025, 11:58:58 PMI have decided with 100% certainty that Caleb Love is the absolute Worst player in all of College Basketball this season.
There are a multitude of qualitative and quantitative factors that have led me to this conclusion. There is no need to list them all out. We all know the reasons why. It really isn't a mechanism of "he is what he is" and in fact he is playing even just a bit better than his "averages".
How could a Penguin loyalist like yourself overlook defense so blatantly? Caleb locked up arguably their best player in Jones. Am I wrong? Caleb's defensive effort is earning him minutes and all the three point attempts he wants.
I appreciate his heroic moment.
We, as a fanbase have been on the other end of some of those.
However, let's just be honest.
We wouldn't have needed it if he were even a mediocre to low level 4th option, but the fact he could take and make that shot in that moment is definitely something admirable.
Caleb is still seriously the worst player in all of College Basketball. This includes his Minutes, Usage Rate, Shot Selection, Decisiveness and Indecisiveness... and more. All of it combined, then some.
The game tonight was really played to Iowa State's favor. It was a slug fest. I don't think Iowa State took advantage enough of it. We witnessed a team that could have clotheslined us and not gotten fouled.
The ref crew is one of the top in the whole landscape of College Basketball and they honored this matchup by largely staying out of it.
I think this really helped a Tough Guy like Awaka with his 17-12 game.
Ironically, no one had more than 3 fouls except Carter with 4. I noticed 2 "cheapies" on him (compared to the way the game was called) and 1 bad luck / out of position on one of those scramble type plays.
Carter went 5-7 from the field. Nailed 4 Humungous 3's.
4-5 from 3 Point Land and tenacious defense.
I questioned Tommy a lot as he would play Townsend on offense for defense subs often when Iowa State had that really tall and lanky kid (Dishon Jackson???). He was having his way with us. We don't really have much of an answer for a Big like that. Henri and Carter play mean and I like it. They do their best.
I didn't like Tommy's strategy at all at the end of Regulation. Purposely missing the FT when Iowa St was missing a ton of FTs all night... I would have asked Henri to try to make the shot, be down 1. Foul them, hope they miss 1 and then we wouldn't have been able to be fouled only down 2 points.
"All's well that end's well" as the saying goes, but Tommy may look back at that someday. Not today. He will enjoy this win as he should. Deserved - possibly earned. However as a teachable moment, Tommy can definitely learn from that scenario.
This game was in our control for 97% of the game and I say that with confidence even knowing it was close. We had some parts where we were in a range where we could have gone up 7-10pts, but we let ISU just hang around. That is our thing. We let everyone hang around.
I don't believe that ISU was going to ever just go away... like they did in OT. That was sort of the anomaly, but I will say that Tommy was able to keep the team focused and actually take inventory of how the game was being called. So I am complimenting Tommy here. He didn't try to do anything that was going to take us out of the game blatantly. He let our guys stand on business for themselves and their pride.
Respek for Tommy in that regard.
I don't understand why Caleb Love will continue to "EARM" (Garner) 35+ Minutes per game.
I would really appreciate the people who use the word "EARN" to help explain it to me. I would even appreciate my haters to come in here to my post and use some sports debate talking points whether it is the Analytics or the Intangibles to come in here and help explain to me why Caleb Love is "EARNING", "DESERVING", and "GARNERING" the minutes he is playing.
This was a great win for us. It meant the world for us actually. It really was just a Bug on the Windshield to ISU... They get Kansas State next in Ames, but I hope they lose that one. That could actually be a Trap Game for them if KSU comes correct before they randomly have to go play AT Kansas (not sure how the scheduling makes sense for our Big12 Super Conference really this year).
Iowa State most certainly did NOT underestimate us and we are not a "Trap Game".
I hope we continue to be Unranked. In my opinion, we haven't "EARNED" being ranked yet. However, it is inevitable seemingly.
I appreciated living in the moment tonight.
OWNWARD AND UP
BEARDOWN.
I effed that up. But seriously, Caleb's defense has been fantastic and that means something, regardless of the emphasis of three point shooting in today's game. In fact I would say we won that game because of our defense. We got lucky and that was an awesome moment that will live forever in McKale history. I thought that was the most entertaining game I can remember in a decade when you consider how good Iowa State is. Caleb said that was the best moment of his life. Love that guy.
I told my pops i finally came up with my nickname for Caleb: Lottery Ticket
Maybe we don't need that miracle shot if Love was benched for his poor shooting. That we will never know.
But what I do know is we have seen Caleb at his best. His NC tournament run, spattering of games at U Of A where he fills it up, and of course that miracle heave.
But that's exactly it, when you have Caleb you have a lottery ticket. And he may shoot you out of a win like he almost did against Iowa State and the Clemson game and you don't win the lottery, but he can also shoot you all the way to the Final Four like he did at NC.
So yes, as its looking more and more like we will be in the tournament, we gotta live with the bad because you can't win the lottery unless you have a ticket. and just like the Iowa state game, Lloyd could have pulled him, but in doing so you are ripping up your lottery ticket before the drawing. And look what happened, we hit the lottery.
I am going to live with the bad and hold my lottery ticket hopefully through March/April.
Quote from: beardownzona on January 29, 2025, 07:05:52 AMI told my pops i finally came up with my nickname for Caleb: Lottery Ticket
Maybe we don't need that miracle shot if Love was benched for his poor shooting. That we will never know.
But what I do know is we have seen Caleb at his best. His NC tournament run, spattering of games at U Of A where he fills it up, and of course that miracle heave.
But that's exactly it, when you have Caleb you have a lottery ticket. And he may shoot you out of a win like he almost did against Iowa State and the Clemson game and you don't win the lottery, but he can also shoot you all the way to the Final Four like he did at NC.
So yes, as its looking more and more like we will be in the tournament, we gotta live with the bad because you can't win the lottery unless you have a ticket. and just like the Iowa state game, Lloyd could have pulled him, but in doing so you are ripping up your lottery ticket before the drawing. And look what happened, we hit the lottery.
I am going to live with the bad and hold my lottery ticket hopefully through March/April.
If you plan your success around a lottery ticket, you are planning to fail. Again, Caleb does many/most things great. He does not shoot 3 pointers well enough to be a high volume shooter. If we rely on that "lottery ticket" any success will be a result of good luck, much like the result of Mondays game.
Quote from: CatInFL on January 28, 2025, 05:04:25 PMI've certainly been critical of Caleb, but the idea of him being the worst player in college basketball is laughable. In fact, I think he does most things extremely well. He should abdolutely not, however, be a high volume 3 point shooter. Three to five a game MIGHT be ok, but I still think it's too many. He may be the most over rated shooter in college basketball, or I might go for least valuable starter or most damaging player. If he'd stop shooting 3's he'd be incredibly valuable. Yes, I agree that the hero moment took him from the reason we lost to the reason we won, but if he hadn't taken (and missed) all those 3's we'd have possibly (likely?) been well ahead and it would not have been necessary.
It can be analyzed. Out of all Power "4" programs or even the top 68 teams in the nation.... or lets call it the top 100 teams or across all of college... where is Caleb Love in Value of Replacement? Now we need to be reasonable. There are outliers galore. Tommy is playing Love so many minutes that his value over replacement is forced to be higher than many players, but this is an instance of numbers not telling the truth.
The player efficiency can't even be accurately measured since we are not getting 33 minutes a game of every player to truly analyze it.
The best we can do is look at Per40 and even that is skewed since all the roles, types of shots, defensive play and anything else you can think of is different player to player. Schemes are different coach to coach.
I am not above showing some work.
https://theanalyst.com/2024-25-college-basketball-wins-above-replacement#:~:text=Basically%2C%20it%20tells%20us%20about,throw%20rate%2C%20steals%20and%20more.
People can play with this tool and decide for themselves who is actually "valuable" and who is artificially pumped in this "market" setting.
Could it be different if a player is injured, out for season, and someone else steps in that their values will be higher?
Sometimes people need to use the "eye test" and just know that Love is a player who should be spotting up waiting for a perfect dish for a catch and shoot or he needs to try the ole "Rip Hamilton/JET approach" of running around screens continuously until he gets just enough space for a mid range shot.
Love can be celebrated when at his best. The few times that is, but if we are looking at the impact of "Cooper Flagg", then measuring it to Caleb Love on that tool, then you can see the numbers aren't that far apart, but you know that it truly is a lie and just because Love is "our guy", doesn't mean that someone else on the roster can't step in and achieve even a much better Value over Replacement.
Flagg and Love have similar numbers because they're similar players, with different size.
The only major outlier is that espn is constantly talking about Dook.
Flagg will be in the NBA next year because he's an inefficient volume shooter with good size. Caleb is unfortunately short for the league, which wouldn't be an issue if he were a pass-first guard.
RELAX
GET ON THE LOVE TRAIN
I SAVED YOU ALL A SEAT
Quote from: KansasCityCats on January 30, 2025, 06:44:51 AMFlagg and Love have similar numbers because they're similar players, with different size.
The only major outlier is that espn is constantly talking about Dook.
Flagg will be in the NBA next year because he's an inefficient volume shooter with good size. Caleb is unfortunately short for the league, which wouldn't be an issue if he were a pass-first guard.
Flagg and Love are not at all similar other than if you want to coin the term ball hog for both.
Quote from: |ᴘ|ʀ|ʏ|ᴍ|ᴇ| on January 30, 2025, 11:15:18 AMRELAX
GET ON THE LOVE TRAIN
I SAVED YOU ALL A SEAT
Can it be in the front row so I don't have to be subjected to everyone's vomit like a rollercoaster when he sends everyone's stomach's sour with his crazy way of playing
He shot it well from 3 today, which scares me for the next 3-4 games.
I know Love has played through rough times this season but today felt amazing to know that we took Caleb over Sanon.
The defense, ball handling and intensity were obvious flaws of Sanon, who can go pro after a nice NIT run this season. Nice choice, kid; way to create a legacy...
Quote from: KansasCityCats on February 01, 2025, 10:32:58 PMI know Love has played through rough times this season but today felt amazing to know that we took Caleb over Sanon.
The defense, ball handling and intensity were obvious flaws of Sanon, who can go pro after a nice NIT run this season. Nice choice, kid; way to create a legacy...
Seems to me that all of that is what 5 years of College Basketball will get you. The differences you noticed in Love and Sanon that is. However, it cannot be ignored just how good Sanon actually is right now at his age and level. He's no world beater and his measurables are not going to make him a Top 5 pick or anything, but the ability he shows is pretty darn good at this stage of his career. I wonder what Sanon's next move will be overall. If he doesn't attempt to go pro, I am thinking Nate Oats may make a call. Maybe Calipari? Certainly Tommy wouldn't rebuild that bridge? Would he?
Anybody would gladly take/pay him but based on his instinct to find desperation playing time during the recruiting process, I assume that he's a lock for the NBA draft.
All You Need Is Love
That shot - 60 ft - vs #3 ISU - in McKale - with 2.2 sec to go - that shot will be talked about and played on the AZ jumbo tron for decades.
Thank you Caleb for That Shot!
Quote from: KansasCityCats on February 02, 2025, 05:47:48 AMAnybody would gladly take/pay him but based on his instinct to find desperation playing time during the recruiting process, I assume that he's a lock for the NBA draft.
I doubt he is a lock. If he isn't going in the lottery, he likely will earn more in College next year and he will land a big paycheck from a SEC / BIG10 type school.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale
I doubt he will be paid less than 2 or 3 million. It is a decision. We will find out.
Caleb Love for president!
Quote from: Zona Nation on February 05, 2025, 03:31:38 PMCaleb Love for president!
Lol. Well, maybe he saw this post and got mad. I for one am not changing my position on the matter until we do at least 1 of 3 things:
Win the Big12 Conference Banner
Win the Big12 Tournament Banner
Make a Final 4 ---> Yes, I said it. I will accept a Final 4 in these circumstances, but I maintain that the Final 4 is still 1 win more than an Elite 8. Winning the Natty is the only thing that moves the needle for a program in my book.