Liquidated incessant posting

[ollieboy5150]

Does anyone else feel Liquidated has hijacked this site?

[Teamgame]

Better be careful what you say as soon as I said something my Karma got knocked down five points to a negative again. I've decided to stop posting and only come here for information posted by Wild himself.

[2020champs]

He's just sharing his opinion even though he's obsessive about it, he definitely hasn't crossed any sort of harassment line

[UAlum]

I basically disagree with everything he says, generally don't read his essay posts anymore, and think its a bummer that a lot of discussion on this site revolves around his incessant bashing of our basketball program's current state, but like others have said, at least he isn't particularly rude to others

[cnfi12]

He's just sharing his opinion even though he's obsessive about it, he definitely hasn't crossed any sort of harassment line

Surely, you jest!

[MDcAtZ]

He definitely has a wealth of knowledge, and there are times he provides some good insights. But then there are times he tries to beat the forum into submission with page long rants full of lies, half-truths, misinformation, and rumors. It's fine to have opinions and debate things... but we fight the media's lies enough outside of PPU. Shouldn't have to fight "fans" parroting media lies here.

It's cool that he thinks the pack line defense sucks. Go ahead and debate it. But don't try destroying someone with completely baseless rumors of sexual impropriety.

[2020champs]

Recently he's been saying things that don't even make sense if he is theoretically an Arizona fan who wants Sean fired, (for example: Josh Green would've had his layup from the McDonalds game blocked, like what?) he simply sounds like he hates our whole program for no reason but I think people know to ignore him, I mean look at his karma, like -270...

[eggdog]

I agree with everything WildcatInUK said above. Maybe if there was a penalty if your karma dropped below a certain number you'd be banned from posting for a week or so and then he'd stick to posting meaningful things instead of constantly spewing hate on Miller. Hoping he improves or not liking his coaching style is one thing but he's way out of line with some of his rumors and he reposts the same crap all the time on every post.

[lynxaz]

After this thread I've finally added him to my ignore list. Hopefully I won't see any more post from Liquidforbrains

[Liquidated]

I have three points for everyone.

1. I signed up in October of 2018 - some of you were here before that and some came after. But this site had very little traffic when I signed up. I recall seeing 10 or more consecutive posts by WildcatAZ and NOTHING else and very few responses to what he was posting. And that is fine if this is an aggregator site or you are coming here for simple information. I see lots of Sheer's stuff and other sites content posted here.

But I write original posts. And I notice more and more people doing the same. Seems like the forum is growing and I am not taking any credit for that, other than my activity and to note that if you are only interesting in the moderators articles, maybe a discussion forum is not your cup of tea. Perhaps that qualify as 'hijacking'?

My interest is in discussion. I engage just about everyone without name calling and trying to find common ground (KansasCity and I share some ideas and opinions and yet he vehemently disagrees with much of what I say - I still treat him as a friend. Same for Little George, Zip, and many others)

2. I do post the same thing over and over...because the same ridiculous stuff gets posted over and over about what a brilliant coach Miller is or how not a single infraction was his doing and that he is completely innocent and a victim of bad reporting only and unfairly. This is patently stupid and yet so may here just seem oblivious to simple, reported facts. So I respond to those. Point is that if I am posting 'incessantly' it is becasue the opposite viewpoint is being presented just as 'incessantly'.

3. I view sports differently than most. I am keenly interested in coaching and motivations, trends and overall program development and much less so in just the surface outcomes. That is why Miller's winning % is meaningless to me, while his odds of making a final four are of paramount interest, again, to me. His success rate with recruits who are not one and done or his in game strategy is far more interesting than video of a recruit dunking in the MCD's AA game. Having posters who can intelligently discuss the Pack Line D would be great, and yet no one does. I comment that it is designed for mid major, short, slower and less talented teams from the mid 1980's and that it forces outside shots, which is exactly what advanced analytics emphasizes and I get told that I am just a 'hater'. When I agree and note that I 'hate' to loose because Miller is 30 years behind the times, and masking his incompetence with one and dones, then I am told to 'F*** Off'. Hard to have a discussion with posters who can't allow someone to have an opinion different from their own. I do hope that most can see, my opinions are formed from experience, backed by facts and knowledge. I spend time researching and often post that research. If your interpretation of that research (often stats) differs, that is great IMO, then we have a discussion.

Miller's winning % is a meaningless thing if he does not make the final four or it is a good thing that I simply don't appreciate.  That is a discussion.
 

[BDMT]

It's not the basketball related stuff that's caused issues.  It's the calling Miller a rapist protecter and that Miller is going around sleeping with under grads. You have no link to back any of that up. Pitts was not charged or arrested for rape. Do I know for a fact he did or didn't do it no, but at the same time neither do you.  Were you there while this all took place? Next even if this did take place how does that make Miller guilty of anything. He just like you and I did not know the whole truth about the situation. Miller stepped back like he should until the facts came out on it and let the school deal with it from what I understand.

Miller sleeping with college coeds I have never heard before you, but I certainly would not take that from someone out there and share it as a fact.

If you keep the above out of stuff than I think other posters would be just fine with you.

[Dav]

I enjoy the hell out of Liquidated.

[Liquidated]

It's not the basketball related stuff that's caused issues.  It's the calling Miller a rapist protecter and that Miller is going around sleeping with under grads. You have no link to back any of that up. Pitts was not charged or arrested for rape. Do I know for a fact he did or didn't do it no, but at the same time neither do you.  Were you there while this all took place? Next even if this did take place how does that make Miller guilty of anything. He just like you and I did not know the whole truth about the situation. Miller stepped back like he should until the facts came out on it and let the school deal with it from what I understand.

Miller sleeping with college coeds I have never heard before you, but I certainly would not take that from someone out there and share it as a fact.

If you keep the above out of stuff than I think other posters would be just fine with you.

Posted exactly one time and very carefully use the word 'rumored'. But there are multiple sources, including current students, a Presidents Club member and one of the posters here. I also know that a moderator of a another site like this, who initially went ballistic at the mention of it and banned a poster over that issue, now admits privately  that he has knowledge of it. 

Pitts was found and plead 'responsible' by a University Title IX kangaroo court in January. He forfeited his scholarship but bargained to finish the semester, which he was allowed to do. But he also, inexplicably, remained with the team until February. Harvey Mason was furious and released information and his letter to the public. We lost two legacy athletes and the support of a alum. Harvey was/is very popular among his peers who are the foundation of our program, having Pitts, player with extremely marginal impact, remain on the team after Trey left and for a full month after the findings is just really poor judgement on Miller's part and shows a pattern of total disregard for simps ethical behavior.

[BDMT]

It's not the basketball related stuff that's caused issues.  It's the calling Miller a rapist protecter and that Miller is going around sleeping with under grads. You have no link to back any of that up. Pitts was not charged or arrested for rape. Do I know for a fact he did or didn't do it no, but at the same time neither do you.  Were you there while this all took place? Next even if this did take place how does that make Miller guilty of anything. He just like you and I did not know the whole truth about the situation. Miller stepped back like he should until the facts came out on it and let the school deal with it from what I understand.

Miller sleeping with college coeds I have never heard before you, but I certainly would not take that from someone out there and share it as a fact.

If you keep the above out of stuff than I think other posters would be just fine with you.

Posted exactly one time and very carefully use the word 'rumored'. But there are multiple sources, including current students, a Presidents Club member and one of the posters here. I also know that a moderator of a another site like this, who initially went ballistic at the mention of it and banned a poster over that issue, now admits privately  that he has knowledge of it. 

Pitts was found and plead 'responsible' by a University Title IX kangaroo court in January. He forfeited his scholarship but bargained to finish the semester, which he was allowed to do. But he also, inexplicably, remained with the team until February. Harvey Mason was furious and released information and his letter to the public. We lost two legacy athletes and the support of a alum. Harvey was/is very popular among his peers who are the foundation of our program, having Pitts, player with extremely marginal impact, remain on the team after Trey left and for a full month after the findings is just really poor judgement on Miller's part and shows a pattern of total disregard for simps ethical behavior.

Posted one time using the word rumor?? Yeah ok I have seen you post on the topic more than once and not sure if you used rumor every time. That same Kangaroo court that you speak of is what found Pitts responsible. The Mason's didn't want it to go to real court because there daughter was on video saying it was consensual. Pitts was not allowed to play on the team once the investigation started and ultimately left the team because of the issue. The whole truth on the issue will probably never come out.

Now on to your statement about Miller supposedly sleeping with college coeds and why or if you stand behind that. I want links to this not my friend heard from another friend that knows this guy BS. Can you provide links to back up your statement?

[Bear]

Some of it I agree with and some i don't. If I chose to read it all it can be overbearing but it's my choice to read it or not. No harm no foul. Play on.

[ichi]

engaging with him is what wandering into the La Brea tar pits must have felt like, and while I appreciate the issue motivating this thread its time to move on, you can tell by his reply he's not going to lighten up

[Liquidated]

Posted one time using the word rumor?? Yeah ok I have seen you post on the topic more than once and not sure if you used rumor every time. 

That was about Miller, not Pitts. I posted it one time and did use the word 'rumored'.

Now on to your statement about Miller supposedly sleeping with college coeds and why or if you stand behind that. I want links to this not my friend heard from another friend that knows this guy BS. Can you provide links to back up your statement?

See above.

[BDMT]

Posted one time using the word rumor?? Yeah ok I have seen you post on the topic more than once and not sure if you used rumor every time. 

That was about Miller, not Pitts. I posted it one time and did use the word 'rumored'.

Now on to your statement about Miller supposedly sleeping with college coeds and why or if you stand behind that. I want links to this not my friend heard from another friend that knows this guy BS. Can you provide links to back up your statement?

See above.

So why spread baseless rumors??

[jumpinjohnny]

". . . you can tell by his reply he's not going to lighten up."

Precisely

[lsg_da_apache]

With all of his postings he still doesn't realize that life does not always go your way. He can post and post and post but nothing in life will ever be up your standards! He just can't let bygones be bygones.... JMO

[MDcAtZ]

Posted one time using the word rumor?? Yeah ok I have seen you post on the topic more than once and not sure if you used rumor every time. 

That was about Miller, not Pitts. I posted it one time and did use the word 'rumored'.

Now on to your statement about Miller supposedly sleeping with college coeds and why or if you stand behind that. I want links to this not my friend heard from another friend that knows this guy BS. Can you provide links to back up your statement?

See above.

So why spread baseless rumors??

In the end, EVEN if there's any truth to any rumor like that, who the fuck cares? If it's consensual and legal, I don't give a flying fuck who he's involved with. It's HIS private life. Only a scumbag would try to smear someone with an unverified rumor about someone's private life. Saying it's a "rumor" doesn't absolve you of that fact. Only saying it once doesn't absolve you of that fact. Are you in high school or something... "oh my God Becky!!! Did you hear who Sean is sleeping with!?!? As if!!!"

[Titan4Wildcats]

I/we've heard all of this before.  Oh, Coach Miller had a top ten recruiting class...and he didn't win the championship.  He didn't get to the Final Four.  Does anyone say that about Duke, when year after year they get one of THE BEST recruiting classes and don't win the title, don't make the FF and sometimes don't even make the tournament.  Where's the questions about Coach K?  Same with Kentucky and Calipari.  Same same with UNC and Williams.  They do this every year.  Bring in the top recruits.  Don't win it all.  Don't get all the glory.  There is so much more besides the Coach that effects all of the outcomes.  Coach Miller has proven over and over again that he is a great Coach.  Anyone that says different either doesn't know much about BB or has other reasons for dissing Coach Miller.

The ol' timers knew how to handle this type of situation.  To the person complaining about Coach Miller's results, they would say..."If you can do better STEP UP.  If not...Shut up. 

The worse part of it all is sometimes it's a Wildcat "fan" who complains so much about the Coach.  Sometimes it's some other team's fan(s) who want to disrespect our Coach.  Neither is acceptable on this site.  This site is for fans to share in the good and the bad of our team.

Bear Down Wildcats!

[Liquidated]

I/we've heard all of this before.  Oh, Coach Miller had a top ten recruiting class...and he didn't win the championship.  He didn't get to the Final Four.  Does anyone say that about Duke, when year after year they get one of THE BEST recruiting classes and don't win the title, don't make the FF and sometimes don't even make the tournament.  Where's the questions about Coach K?  Same with Kentucky and Calipari.  Same same with UNC and Williams.  They do this every year.  Bring in the top recruits.  Don't win it all.  Don't get all the glory.  There is so much more besides the Coach that effects all of the outcomes.  Coach Miller has proven over and over again that he is a great Coach.  Anyone that says different either doesn't know much about BB or has other reasons for dissing Coach Miller.

The ol' timers knew how to handle this type of situation.  To the person complaining about Coach Miller's results, they would say..."If you can do better STEP UP.  If not...Shut up. 

The worse part of it all is sometimes it's a Wildcat "fan" who complains so much about the Coach.  Sometimes it's some other team's fan(s) who want to disrespect our Coach.  Neither is acceptable on this site.  This site is for fans to share in the good and the bad of our team.

Bear Down Wildcats!

This never cease to amaze me. You have no facts here, yet construct an argument based on assumptions.

There are five programs we compete with (or USED TO, anyway). They are, in order of recruiting prowess (Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC and Michigan State). You can look up their average recruiting rankings, as I have done and I have posted, and you would discover that since Miller arrived at Arizona, Kentucky is #1 and Duke and AZ are about even. They are the only two who even come close to Arizona. Kansas is a distant fourth, UNC 5th and Michigan State is not even close. Go ahead, look it up since you probably don't believe me.

LOSING IS NOT THE PROBLEM - ALWAYS LOSING IS. 
I am not certain how many times I need to make this point, but since it clearly did not get across to some as wise and experienced as your self on these boards - I have always conceded that major upsets happen. Wichita State or Miami of Ohio, teams we should have never, ever lost to, can beat you. That is the nature of the tournament. But guess what happened 2 years after? 

2 years after losing to Wichita State in the first round, we lost to Buffalo, in the first round.
2 years after losing to Miami of Ohio in the first round, WE WON THE F888ING NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. BIG DIFFERENCE. HUGE DIFFERENCE.  OH...and Incidentally - the year before we lost to Miami of Ohio, we were in the FINAL FOUR. See how that works? 1 Horrible loss is mitigated by a final four appearance and a national championship in the space of four years. But 10 YEARS IN A ROW OF BAD LOSSES OR NO TOURNAMENT AT ALL....BIG DIFFERENCE. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Just for fun, go back and look at what those respective recruiting classes were ranked.


YES, DUKE AND KENTUCKY AND UNC (AND MICHIGAN STATE AND KANSAS) HAVE ALL HAD EARLY ROUND LOSSES OR LOSES TO LOWER SEEDS...
And I am only speaking since Miller came to Arizona, but the fact is those programs do lose and do get upset....but guess what else they do?

THEY F888ING WIN NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS. THEY GO TO THE FINAL FOUR. THEY WIN BIG TIME GAMES OOC AGAINST TOP RANKED OPPONENTS IN THE REGULAR SEASON.

Again, only since Miller has been at Arizona:

KANSAS - 1 National Championship (2008 - technically the year before he got here), 3 Final Fours
MICHIGAN STATE - 0 NC, 3 FF's
UNC - 1 NC, 1 FF
KENTUCKY - 1 NC, 4 FF's
DUKE - 2 NC's, 2 FF's

Couple of points here.
1. OFTEN these teams are playing each other in the final four... so any win is even that much more impressive and losses that much more forgivable.
2. This does not account for the rise of Villanova (2 NC's) or Louisville (1 NC, 2 FF's) or Wisconsin (2 FF's) - in some way those programs are rising because of space created by a program like AZ falling.

You wonder why Coach K is not questioned when he looses an early round game and has so much talent? A: TWO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS IN TEN YEARS.

MILLER ROUTINELY RECRUITS WITH THESE PROGRAMS AND COLLECTIVELY THEY REPRESENT 1/2 OF THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS (more if Michigan State wins it this year) AND 13 FINAL FOURS - AND MILLER HAS ZERO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS AND ZERO FINAL FOURS.  If it was only 1 year we were comparing then fine. Pick 2013 when none of them were in the final four.. and its all even... but it is now an entire decade of gross under achievement.

"oh but we were one basket away in the Wisconsin game..." Yea, so was every single one of these programs in a year that they failed. A blown call or a key injury...everyone has excuses for losing. But they ALL came back and won.

Coach Miller has proven over and over again that he is a great Coach.

When, exactly? Here is where you get stumped. I am not trying to be mean to you, here, seriously, tell me what makes Miller a great coach?

WHAT MAKES A GREAT COACH?
Academic Achievements? Miller had a lot of trouble early on with this.
Player retention? Fail.
Player development? D, maybe F. Most of the players that actually developed were destined for the NBA already, anyway. Improvement is pretty marginal over all. No NBA team plays anything at all like the pack line so its not like he's developing NBA skills. Many recruits considered sure fire lottery picks were not even drafted. Trier, Ashley, Zeus....can you honestly say their game developed significantly while here?   
Community Involvement? Miller is rarely seen or heard from. His wife make public statements about her not liking his job. 
X's & O's? ba ha ha ha ha ha - there aren't any. He plays exactly the same predictable defense 99.9% of the time.
FAN Support/Attendance? - Well, Russ Pennell and Kevin O'Neill are apparently great coaches, too, then. Pretty sure my friends 5th grader could coach and Tucson would support the cats. That is not a function of Miller.
Coaching record?
Against a weekening PAC12  he is getting progressively worse.
Record vs ranked opponents is terrible and extremely anemic because we don't play hardly any. The PAC 12 is out of his control, Lute used to play 5 or more every year just in conference.. I do not fault him for that. But then why not schedule tougher OOC games? Remember the home and home with Kansas? With Texas when they were a top 10 program? Remember the year we played like 8 ranked opponents before the conference season even started? Now we play in the Bahamas...and lose to nobodies.
Record in the tournament? Zero Final fours. Really bad first round losses to vastly inferior teams that did not advance. Consistent losses to lower seeds.
Recruiting? Yes Miller recruits with the very best. He gets the one and dones that get the class rankings up higher and get drafted a year later but what about the rest of his recruits...like our entire roster from this past year?
Runs a clean program? Epic Fail.

PLEASE- tell me when, where, how Miller has proven he is great coach? 

You are regurgitating colloquial, non fact driven, emotional attitudes towards the AZ basketball program. You cannot understand that dispassionate, fact driven, result based criticism is not mutually exclusive from fandom.

And yes, I could do better. My friends 5th grader said earlier this season "we don't shoot very well - they should work on that". Interesting that some world class computer programmers and an AI super computer arrived at the same conclusion and the Golden State Warriors were the result. Gee, if we only had a connection there we could maybe implement a winning offense. It does not take a basketball genius to see what needs to be done. Remember when Lute brought in a shooting form specialist as a consultant? Steve Kerr does. Remember when Pastner worked wth Bibby on his unorthodox shot and his shooting % went up? 
1. I would not hire unethical assistants and I would know exactly what they were doing and what type of people they are. I say this from experience, I ran a clean business with quality people for more than a decade in a notoriously unethical industry (liquor). 
2. I would hire better X's and O's assistants who could install multiple defenses and who understand the modern game.
3. I would play to the players strengths, speed, athleticism, etc instead of trying to obviate them and try to make everyone fit into a single system.
4. I would hire better PR people or handle it myself and I'd punch back at ESPN if they lied.

I've seen this all before, blind homer-ism, excuses for a program in rapid decline, acceptance of gross unethical behavior... and if anyone says anything, that is 'not acceptable', needs to be banned....there is word for the singular viewpoint and groupthink you seek - Fascism.

[ichi]

It's obvious that this guy is the site administrator (or a friend of his) posting hot takes to drum up discussion on the message boards. As a new forum, that's an understandable tactic to jumpstart discussion.

All of you that are complaining about it are pretty slow! There is no human being who is capable of using a computer that has such bad takes, you've all just taken the bait.

good as any explanation I've heard

but seriously, brilliantly played, he's flipped a thread about people bitching at him into a longwinded diatribe supported by opinions dressed as lockdown facts

briliant

[Titan4Wildcats]

And how many years have they been coaching?  And how long before they went to their first final four?  Championship?  And did they have years where their star OAD fought with them the whole season?  Did they have seasons where lies were told and major pressures put on the program.  Coach Miller still put a team on the floor that competed through all the BS that's come up and we've still watched some great BB.
P.S. He's currently on a road that will take him to making some lie spreading people eat crow.  Maybe you might want to hold back for another season. 
P.S. P.S.  A normal fan site is for fans to share the good times, the great games, the success of their local team.  Not to criticize a person doing a LOT better job that quite a few others would do "walking in his shoes".  We want to appreciate our team and coaching staff.  That's why some get upset when someone comes telling them their coach isn't any good.  Especially after his record of wins/competition/and recruiting success all went up quite a few years in a row, to a respectable level...short time, after inheriting a Fire Sale.  Those are the statistics that count to those of us that were watching as the UofA BB team was torn up, and then watched Coach Miller put us back into the spotlight within a few seasons.  I'll cover his back anytime. 

[FOOS]

I say as long as he's respectful to others we should be open to different points of view....  If you don't like what he posts - move on.  Kinda like changing the radio station.....

[2020champs]

STOP MEASURING SUCCESS ON FINAL FOURS, I could dispute a lot of other points too but stop ignoring the 3 elite 8's and 2 sweet 16's which compare with a lot of the other great programs in a single decade. It's either you only talk about national championships or you talk about all tournament success, not just final fours that bend your facts to make it look like Miller is a complete tournament failure.

[2020champs]

It's obvious that this guy is the site administrator (or a friend of his) posting hot takes to drum up discussion on the message boards. As a new forum, that's an understandable tactic to jumpstart discussion.

All of you that are complaining about it are pretty slow! There is no human being who is capable of using a computer that has such bad takes, you've all just taken the bait.

good as any explanation I've heard

but seriously, brilliantly played, he's flipped a thread about people bitching at him into a longwinded diatribe supported by opinions dressed as lockdown facts

briliant

Don't think WILD is that click desperate

[ichi]

Don't think WILD is that click desperate

of course not, its absurd, everything about this is silly

[WILD]

I'll bet you anything the rumor posted on Miller was started because he took a Pic or was talking with a young female because people just assume things & run with it.  The rumor about Miller is just ridiculous & needs to be put to rest! Anyone can make things up & say they heard this and that about a coach or a player, but without proof it can harm a person's reputation.

Also, I would hope that the members of this site would know that I would never create posts to stir things up & create clicks. Liquid has been around UofA forums for a while & goes by the name of Wyno I believe. He did let me know that he's been kicked/banned from other sites upon joining PPU. I did have a recent conversation with him about toning it down a bit & he has agreed to do so. We appreciate different points of views & even a rumor or 2 as long as it's not damaging to a person's reputation.

[AZip]

I am going to drink some Liquid Wine

[BearDown93]

Not everyone on here disagrees with Liquidated. I agree with a lot of what he says and he backs it up with research and numbers. As expected there is quite a bit of homerism and blind love for the Arizona program. The program has serious issues imo. My lack of love for the current state of the program as it stands does not diminish my being a fan.

USA Today for April 3 has a great article about Texas Tech and their coach. I can't find it online. Title: Texas Techs Beard feels like underdog ever day. Without ever mentioning Arizona it goes on to describe everything wrong with the Arizona program and Sean Miller's coaching style. The article goes on to state that TT has no McDonald's all Americans. One player who was a top 100 recruit. They got to where they are through great coaching and hard work.

I'm not excited about another year of superstar one and dones who could care less about Arizona and will use our school to get to the NBA. Sean Miller has chosen this path so likewise I feel no sympathy for our $4mil coach when he has to rebuild every year. Duke is a great example of how this approach is so difficult to make work.  The sooner we get back to a blue Chip approach the better. In this regard I believe our coach is not the right guy. He is unwilling to change and winning PAC titles against a low quality PAC is not a measure of success.

I'm with Liquidated on this one.

[eggdog]

Did the article actually talk about Miller's coaching style or the way we recruit? I'm not aware of any schools that don't go after the one and done players and surely Beard would be going after them if he was here at Arizona.

[mvpreed2]

Does anyone else feel Liquidated has hijacked this site?

The simple answer is no.
This is a fan site where all Arizona fans are welcome.

There aren't many Arizona "fans" have the extreme stance/opinions that he does, but we all have two options; ignore it or respond to it.
I am choosing to ignore it until I am able to read a post and not want to immediately say something negative to the person.

[BearDown93]

Did the article actually talk about Miller's coaching style or the way we recruit? I'm not aware of any schools that don't go after the one and done players and surely Beard would be going after them if he was here at Arizona.

As I mentioned in my post the article never talks about Arizona.  It talks about how TT has a single player even rated in the top 100.  It talks about his coaching philosophy and how the players respond to his coaching methods.  It mentions how he has turned day to day coaching over to his assistant coach who values tough defense.  Direct quotes from players, his history under former coaches and where he learned to coach.  In short, he took a bunch of nobody's and put them in situations to get to a final 4.  The point being that he must recruit guys who play a certain style, then he coaches them for 4 years and makes them play at a collective level better than individuals.  That's good coaching, perhaps even great coaching.

Miller had a chance this year to show he can coach regular players.  Once highly recruited 'regular' players.  He didn't need to get to a final 4 in order to show his coaching ability.  He just needed to finish somewhere in the middle to upper end of the PAC, beat a couple of better teams, show improvement through the year, play inspired basketball, win at least one game in the conference tourney perhaps even two and show some fight in March.  None of this happened.  We lost in the tourney exactly how we lost all year.  Uninspired and outclassed.

The argument that we don't have good players doesn't seem right.  We had good enough players to fight for a PAC championship but for some reason they lack something.  The argument that Beard would chase these guys if he could doesn't matter.  Nobody knows but Beard.  But, Beard and others have shown that a well coached team can beat a couple of superstars more often than not. 

This doesn't make me a TT fan.  But, it makes me appreciate what they are doing and they are doing it the right way.  Final thought, when you chase guys who we all suspect are being paid by Nike, Adidas, etc you invite controversy and investigations.  When a coach in the program is caught red handed you invite even more unwanted press.  When you rely on guys who stay for a year or two you have the added work of finding a new superstar every year.  When you recruit blue collar guys and coach them to be better over 4 years none of these problems exist.  They may have other issues and I'm sure they are not complete angels but the things I listed do not exist when you aren't chasing superstars.  Millers approach has tarnished Arizona and it won't be easy to fix if we continue down the same path. 

Just like Ayton, I have no love for our two new 'superstars'.  I hope they do well and I'll be behind them but I'll give them the 25% admiration they are giving to our program. 

[eggdog]

I love what Beard is doing - I think I was the only one in the pool who had TT in the Final Four - and he's got two assistants who have played in the final four which is an added bonus. It'd be great to go back to the days where we had players stay for four years I just don't see that happening here where we have such a tradition of producing NBA players under Lute and Miller. Hopefully the change to the one and done rule and the NBA investing more in the G League will help bring back the days where players did stay. To expect more than what we did this season is silly though. Miller had one year to coach a bunch of players with almost no experience who never played with each other. All year they heard they were the worst team at Arizona in 40 years and they lost their confidence after a decent start. Plus we had multiple injuries. I wouldn't put all that on his coaching and shoe companies paying high school players shouldn't our fault.

It's also easy to look at a team that got to the final four and wish we were doing what they're doing, especially after a down year, but that success doesn't always carry over when they lose that special group of payers that got them there. Look at what Shaka Smart and Andy Enfield have done after their tourney runs and everyone wants to hire Greg Marshall but he's been at the same school for years and they were terrible this year.

[Liquidated]

I don't fault a kid for playing one year only... and I think the modern game requires you to have them in order to win.

If you look at Texas Tech, they were simply under the radar...and he's had kids develop far beyond their recruiting rankings. They have also greatly over achieved. His formula is luck...unless he recruits more talented players, he will not return to the final four.

This issue, IMO, is not the OND's its the rest of the group and who is waiting in the wings, re-loading instead of rebuilding...and I think this past class was a big time let down for Miller, even if it had included the two we lost.

Lets say Quinerly and O'Neill had come with Williams.

Williams is OK...he's not a one and done or a talent who will be all conference. Quinerly did not play especially well either. Neither of these guys will ever touch Remy Martin or Pritchard as PG's in the PAC12. Throw in Barcello & Coleman too (not sure we would have offered Coleman had Quinerly come) and you have four just sort of good (by AZ standards) combo guards. Not one of them is a true PG...and none of them are a significant improvement over PJC, who himself was a compromise.

Miller is operating and has been for 8 of his ten years without a stable, consistent, plan at PG. Point Guard U has become where over rated PG recruits go to transfer out of or flounder. You can say that Miller has had rotten luck at PG. He has. Transfers out have been ridiculously high for that position. Barcello is nowhere near the player everyone expected. Have no idea what actually happened to Simmons, but he did not work out either. But some of the blame has to rest with the recruiting team. They have consistently found unstable guys, headcases, busts, under sized, combo guards playing put of position... sooner or later they need to lock this down and figure out what they need.   

Let's say O'Neill was healthy and ready to play. He was, by even the most rosy projections, somewhat of a project (as most freshmen big men are). That leaves us with Jeter. Luther comes in too. On their very best days, both of them are talented enough to play a pick up game with NBA players not not embarrass themselves. But none of these guys are AZ good and Jeter is our best player by a long shot. This is who Miler planned on replacing Deandre Ayton with. Deandre Ayton rates with David Robinson and Hakim Olajuwon - he will be a perennial NBA ALL Star (assuming he stays healthy and keeps his head screed on right). We basically fell off a cliff on the front line. Remember we had Ristic, too - who was better than Jeter.

This is where recruiting comes in...We needed a Wooten or Cheatham type player. You can't just go land the next Ayton, I get that, but surely, you knew two + years ago that you needed front line players for this year and your plan was a grad transfer + Shareef O'Neill and Jeter!?

I really think that if we had a true PG (and please don't tell me that Mannion is finally the PG Miller has wanted - we've heard that about everyone from Lyons to Coleman) and if we had a legit big center (even a Zeus with the fumble fingers) - the supporting cast would have had a much easier time of it this past year.

And that speaks to the baseline players we recruit. Which we saw on full display this year. 8TH place in the PAC12 and thats about our talent level, too.





 

[KansasCityCats]

Little Rock was 13-18 before Beard arrived.

He went 30-5 during his lone season at UALR.

Over the next three (combined) seasons, they won 32 games.

The guy can coach, regardless of who is on his roster.

[Liquidated]

Little Rock was 13-18 before Beard arrived.

He went 30-5 during his lone season at UALR.

Over the next three (combined) seasons, they won 32 games.

The guy can coach, regardless of who is on his roster.

While I don't doubt that... that type of coach emerges every year. Shaka Smart, Tom Crean, Andy Enfield, Bobby Hurley, Eric Musselman, Brad Stevens, Bryce Drew, Greg Marshall, Chris Mack....Archie Miller made everyones list after his last few seasons at Dayton... they are always the hot commodity and somehow the years following never quite live up to expectations. They take on bigger challenges or have trouble re-creating their initial success.

[2020champs]

Little Rock was 13-18 before Beard arrived.

He went 30-5 during his lone season at UALR.

Over the next three (combined) seasons, they won 32 games.

The guy can coach, regardless of who is on his roster.

While I don't doubt that... that type of coach emerges every year. Shaka Smart, Tom Crean, Andy Enfield, Bobby Hurley, Eric Musselman, Brad Stevens, Bryce Drew, Greg Marshall, Chris Mack....Archie Miller made everyones list after his last few seasons at Dayton... they are always the hot commodity and somehow the years following never quite live up to expectations. They take on bigger challenges or have trouble re-creating their initial success.

This is why Sean Miller should be more appreciated!

[Liquidated]

Little Rock was 13-18 before Beard arrived.

He went 30-5 during his lone season at UALR.

Over the next three (combined) seasons, they won 32 games.

The guy can coach, regardless of who is on his roster.

While I don't doubt that... that type of coach emerges every year. Shaka Smart, Tom Crean, Andy Enfield, Bobby Hurley, Eric Musselman, Brad Stevens, Bryce Drew, Greg Marshall, Chris Mack....Archie Miller made everyones list after his last few seasons at Dayton... they are always the hot commodity and somehow the years following never quite live up to expectations. They take on bigger challenges or have trouble re-creating their initial success.

This is why Sean Miller should be more appreciated!

Well Shaka Smart is at Texas. Bryce Drew just got fired from Vanderbilt. Mussleman is at Nevada..... none of these programs are AZ. Even Archie Miller at Indiana - they are further removed from Blue Chip status than we are.

But we are Arizona. Ten years with no final four...is just not acceptable. 

[KansasCityCats]

Eighty years under the bracket format and only ONE National Championship.

That's almost as far from blue chip as you can get.

[Liquidated]

Eighty years under the bracket format and only ONE National Championship.

That's almost as far from blue chip as you can get.

Why Final Fours matter... Modern game begins in 1986 - 3 point line and 64 team tourney... anything before is irrelevant.